[neekomax]

What are your thoughts on this? I am considering separates for a future system update, and this seems logical to me. What do you who use tubed preamps like about them? Do they not have the same arbitrary eq problems that tube amps have? From my readings, it seems that mo' amp power is mo' better, and the most cost effective way of getting that wattage is either Class AB or the latest Class D stuff (ICE or Hypex). My current preamp has a tube buffer stage, and my current amp is an AB 100 wpc affair. Both were bought fairly cheap, so I wouldn't feel too bad about moving on from either/both if I found the right gear for the next level...

Please keep in mind that I am not an electrical engineer, so dumbed-down explanations are welcome  .

[twitch54]

no 'single' answer, it's all about system 'synergy'. With that being said there are ALOT of folks that love the tube pre and SS amp combo......incl me !

in my system I have a tube pre (ARC LS-27) that drives a pair of Rogue M-180 mono blocks or a Plinius Sa-102.......all depends on my mood !

[SteveFord]

Tube pre and tube amps for me.
I like a 3D presentation and I've yet to hear a solid state amp do quite the same trick.

[medium jim]

Tube pre and tube amps for me.
I like a 3D presentation and I've yet to hear a solid state amp do quite the same trick.

+1

The best advice is to hit a few stereo stores that have both tube and SS/class d to hear for yourself. Better yet, hit an audio show to emmerse yourself with all the options.  At the end of the day, you have to please yourself.

Jim

[FullRangeMan]

Is a Full Tube Preamp + a High Powered SS or class D Amp the Ideal Setup?
No

[twitch54]

Is a Full Tube Preamp + a High Powered SS or class D Amp the Ideal Setup?
No

a one word answer ????? ......please !!

[Freo-1]

I have both.  It REALLY depends on what type of music you listen to, and how loud you want it.  Most rock/pop does not display as much dynamic range as classical music, but can demand loads of sustained power. 
My advice is to pick the speakers FIRST, and THEN decide what amp best suits that speakers need.  Some things to consider:

1) Full Range or monitor/subwoofer(s) ?
2) Dynamic, Horn, or Planer ??
3) High efficiency, medium efficiency, or low efficacy?
 
Once that is worked out, select an amp(s) that best match you speakers and intended music.  For example, say you decide on Klipschorns.  Those puppies are 104db/w, so you do not need a lot of power.  Paul Klipsch was famous for saying: "What this country needs a good 5 watt amplifer".
If you wind up with Electrostatic speakers, then a high powered amplifer (one that is stable into low impedance loads) is the ticket.  Something along the lines of a Pass Labs would be a excellent choice.  Many people love the combination of Audio Research and Maggies. 

For dynamic speakers, it gets a little more interesting.  Mulit driver setups with complex crossovers tend to like high powered solid state amps.  Higher efficiency speakers can work well with both tubes and solid state.  Lower efficiency speakers will need more power (solid state or Class D). 

Lastly, all things being equal, it's always good to have enough power to avoid clipping.  I'm going to steer clear of the Class D arguments.  Some people swear by them, while other people swear at them.     I'm somewhere in the middle with Class D.  I've owned a number of them over the years, thought they sounded OK initially, and wound up selling each one.   The sound over time was just not to my liking.  Other people love how they sound.  There was post that referred to working a audio room over the weekend, and getting comments back that ran the gambit, from great sound to not liking it (even with the same song). 

Personally, I'm partil to tubes.  Some music (heavy symphonic stuff with a lot of dynamics) does seem to work better with high powered solid states.

[FullRangeMan]

a one word answer ????? ......please !!

Audio equips are as cars, clothes etc, a very personal issue or taste.
For me solidstate already bad and Class D then...

[neekomax]

Ok, as expected, opinions vary.

Freo-1, I'm very happy with my speakers. They are 86-87 db efficient, and have active bass, so my amp only needs to handle 200 hz and up. My music preferences tend towards small ensemble jazz, pop/rock/electronic stuff, no classical.

So the speakers aren't terribly efficient, but the music I listen to probably doesn't need insane headroom either, so I guess that puts me somewhere in the middle in terms of power requirements, right?

My hesitation with tube amps is the maintenance thing, plus the controversy around the frequency response being affected by source impedance. I don't want a random eq from my amp. AJ, who designed my speakers, seems to feel that tube amps pose unnecessary problems in this regard. I respect his opinion, as he at least seems to know what he's talking about when it comes to speaker design. That said, I've never heard a tube amp in my system, so I'm pretty clueless about what it would actually sound like.

That's why I started thinking about an all-tube preamp, as I assume these issues aren't present, since it's not responsible for amplification (duh). The thing I'm not clear on, is what exactly a tube preamp would do in my system besides providing volume control and source selection. Can anyone explain this a bit?

[Freo-1]

Your hesitation with maintenance is valid.  The main reason I got back into tubes I went the DIY route.

Based on your speakers, I would seriously consider a Pass Labs INT-150 or a INT-30A.  They have balanced inputs, only two gain stages, and incredible sound.  Reno Hi-Fi has excellent trial policies, and can be had for 3600-3800.  Not cheap, but not all bad for a pre/power combo.  I have tubes on my digital sources, and it's a great combo.

[medium jim]

Ok, as expected, opinions vary.

Freo-1, I'm very happy with my speakers. They are 86-87 db efficient, and have active bass, so my amp only needs to handle 200 hz and up. My music preferences tend towards small ensemble jazz, pop/rock/electronic stuff, no classical.

So the speakers aren't terribly efficient, but the music I listen to probably doesn't need insane headroom either, so I guess that puts me somewhere in the middle in terms of power requirements, right?

My hesitation with tube amps is the maintenance thing, plus the controversy around the frequency response being affected by source impedance. I don't want a random eq from my amp. AJ, who designed my speakers, seems to feel that tube amps pose unnecessary problems in this regard. I respect his opinion, as he at least seems to know what he's talking about when it comes to speaker design. That said, I've never heard a tube amp in my system, so I'm pretty clueless about what it would actually sound like.

That's why I started thinking about an all-tube preamp, as I assume these issues aren't present, since it's not responsible for amplification (duh). The thing I'm not clear on, is what exactly a tube preamp would do in my system besides providing volume control and source selection. Can anyone explain this a bit?

Let me put it this way, the doom of tube amps has been harbingered for decades and they still are being made and are finding homes to provide beautiful music.  I guess there is really a sucker born every minute.  Or go to a large Audio Show and see how many Mid to High-End Speakers are being mated with Tube Amplification, or that they win best of show in many instances.

Trust your ears!

Jim

[kingdeezie]

Ok, as expected, opinions vary.

Freo-1, I'm very happy with my speakers. They are 86-87 db efficient, and have active bass, so my amp only needs to handle 200 hz and up. My music preferences tend towards small ensemble jazz, pop/rock/electronic stuff, no classical.

So the speakers aren't terribly efficient, but the music I listen to probably doesn't need insane headroom either, so I guess that puts me somewhere in the middle in terms of power requirements, right?

My hesitation with tube amps is the maintenance thing, plus the controversy around the frequency response being affected by source impedance. I don't want a random eq from my amp. AJ, who designed my speakers, seems to feel that tube amps pose unnecessary problems in this regard. I respect his opinion, as he at least seems to know what he's talking about when it comes to speaker design. That said, I've never heard a tube amp in my system, so I'm pretty clueless about what it would actually sound like.

That's why I started thinking about an all-tube preamp, as I assume these issues aren't present, since it's not responsible for amplification (duh). The thing I'm not clear on, is what exactly a tube preamp would do in my system besides providing volume control and source selection. Can anyone explain this a bit?

I see others have beaten me to it, but I think you need to try and demo some tube amplifiers, and see if you like the sound.

I was never truly satisfied with my setup until I went all tube in the pre-amp/amplification department. There is a texture and 3 dimensionality to the sound that SS for me never came close to duplicating. I am sure there is a graph available to prove why the sound I hear and prefer is incorrect, but I could careless because I enjoy my system. 

As for the maintance issue, I think careful discrimination of what company you purchase from can make the issue heaven or hell. I bought used Manley Neo Classic 250s. Manley has fully supported me. They are 8 and a half years (Ive had them for 2.5 years) old and have never been in for servicing. The most I have had to do is change or a tube, or replace one cathode resistor (tube went when I first got the amplifiers) which Manley provides with spring clips for a no-soldering easy installation. 

Good luck!

[Freo-1]

Always had a soft spot for Manley/VTL amps.  For a non techno-geek, it's really important to get good quality power tubes.  With many current production tubes, that can be a bit tricky. 

I would compare tubes to something like a Pass Labs.  You will find that they are not as different as you would first think.  Definitely should audition both, and see what you think .

[neekomax]

Yeah, I definitely think I need to start just listening to components at home. Now, as to how to make that happen... 

Anyone have some extra tube gear sitting around that they'd like to ship my way for a demo? 

[twitch54]

Audio equips are as cars, clothes etc, a very personal issue or taste.

agreed

For me solidstate already bad and Class D then...

in so far as SS being 'bad', there is plenty of great gear to make that statement utter nonsense.

Simply put, given the Op's 86-87 db speakers, I'm willing to bet you'll find more capable SS amplification per $$ spent than tube. Regardless, as others have said, don't just listen to all the BS on the internet....get out and LISTEN !!

[FullRangeMan]

in so far as SS being 'bad', there is plenty of great gear to make that statement utter nonsense.

A top solidstate amp is great for a time, afew years, then it will be absoleted by the newest pretty transistor on the shelf.
Tubes are not investiment as gold but ones like 300B, 2A3, 45 or the big triodes are around since the 1930/40.

[cujobob]

If you're just doing 2.0, a tubed pre is fantastic. They don't use a ton of energy, they help create an amazing soundstage, you have some tweakability when you're bored, no biasing to worry about, and the tubes last a really long time (usually).

For the power amp..lots of varying opinions. If you don't need a lot of watts, I would highly highly highly recommend something like a First Watt F5 clone. Nothing to really deal with, because it's not a high powered amp (25 wpc) it doesn't use an insane amount of energy, and the SQ is fantastic. Instead of going the class A/B route, I moreso recommend a high quality modern Class D amp. They can be had in kit form cheap or one can splurge and go with something like the Ncore stuff. Big watts, great sound, doesn't use a lot of power. I've been more green in my approach lately because I like my amps putting less heat into the room and I don't worry about leaving them on whenever I'm home to play things like TV through them.

Going this route makes adding a sub more difficult...so that must be taken into account.

Edit: This nonsense of 'trust your ears' is way oversimplifying things. People are susceptible to marketing hype, pretty cases, and some equipment simply doesn't play well together and that gives you a bad impression of how it may sound with other equipment you could be considering. It's important to hear before purchasing, but it's a poor evaluation tool overall. Understand specs, read a lot, and perhaps even ask the company you purchased your speakers from for advice (depending on what you own, obviously). Just my two cents.. Specs, reliability, and value are the big factors for me. Spend your money where it counts (speakers/room) and less where it doesn't matter as much.

[SteveFord]

Perhaps your friendly local audio dealer would let you bring your speakers to their place for a demo?
If you ask nicely and explain what you're trying to accomplish the vast majority of the high end dealers are very accommodating people who share a similar passion.
A road trip might answer your question for you.

[medium jim]

Edit: This nonsense of 'trust your ears' is way oversimplifying things. People are susceptible to marketing hype, pretty cases, and some equipment simply doesn't play well together and that gives you a bad impression of how it may sound with other equipment you could be considering. It's important to hear before purchasing, but it's a poor evaluation tool overall. Understand specs, read a lot, and perhaps even ask the company you purchased your speakers from for advice (depending on what you own, obviously). Just my two cents.. Specs, reliability, and value are the big factors for me. Spend your money where it counts (speakers/room) and less where it doesn't matter as much.

Actually, it takes the sales hype out of the equation   I agree that there is a lot of confirmation bias to deal with, which cuts both ways....if you close your eyes and truly listen, your ears will tell you what is best for you.  It amazes me of how many people are afraid to trust their ears, after all, it is what you take in the sound with

Jim

[cujobob]

I don't want to de-rail the thread but here's a quick google to explain why that thinking is flawed: http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html