[jsinger986]

I wanted to get your opinions on this room.  First, I'm not really going to be able to put any panels or bass traps in the room.  They are just not esthetically what we want.  We're still getting settled in the new apartment so the room is pretty bare.  The only things I'd be able to place to effect sound would be bookshelves, some plants, and wall art so I'm guessing there isn't much I'd be able to do to improve the acoustics.  As for a bookshelf, I'm wondering which wall would be the better location: the wall to the right of the fireplace or the wall directly behind the listening area.

As you can see from the layout, there really is only one corner and most of the walls have angles (fireplace, bay windows, etc).  The biggest detriment to sound is the street noise.  The curtains help a bit but this is an old house and the windows aren't exactly thick and soundproofs.

Some more info:
9.5" speaker distance from wall
7' from speakers to listening position
5' from listening position to back wall
10' ceilings
- Hardwood floors throughout
- fireplace with tile

Is there any hope for improving things with my limited options?

It's hard to see the labels on the drawing but the speakers are the two squares on the front wall and the sub is the square to the left of the left speaker.

Forgive the crappy iPhone shots.

[Rob Babcock]

Welcome to AC!  There are few rooms that are truly hopeless, and I'm sure there are some things you can do to improve the sound you're getting.  I'm sure a few of the experts will be along shortly.

[S Clark]

You've asked for help to improve the acoustics, but you've tied our hands by saying that you don't want bass traps or panels... so I guess that diffusers are also out of the question.  Can you at least get rid of the coffee table? What about a thick rug between the speakers and the listening position?

[James Romeyn]

Really, no sarcasm...you have no idea how greatly you increased my satisfaction with and gratitude for my room, especially the virtual dead silent outdoor noise 24/7.

Back to your room...seriously, strongly consider trading for smaller speaker that you can put up as high as possible, invert the drivers if necessary because of height, and mounting it to the wall, probably ideal would be something on a ball joint.

It's quite obvious the ungodly (from acoustic view) stuff between and IFO the speakers will stay.  It's as close to hopeless as I can imagine as-is, sorry.  Considering how awful is the current comb filter effect of the current furniture, any/all treatments are (no exaggeration) completely useless and a total waste of funds.   

Really, my proposed solution will solve the biggest issues currently described.  With furnishings as is, absolutely nothing (IMO) will advance your cause as much as my advice.  What are the main speakers?  (just to get an idea what stand mounts might have similar value.) 

After that, you could consider placing some OC703 tiles with graphic art face.  Over my L shoulder is almost full unused case of OC703.  I'd sell pieces at the current cost per unit area in case lot.  But again, this is useless till you mount smaller speakers on the wall.  In that little room you'll only gain, and loose absolutely nothing by downsizing your mains.  Do you have available high pass filter you could employ on the mains?

If you can't touch the wall, then consider some small lightweight speakers on the tallest stands possible.  Cambridge Minx come to mind.  Plus they kick butt sound wise.  The problem is they don't go super low but working around that is much better than your current problem (venetian blind comb filter effect from all the highly reflective furniture near the speakers).         

It actually looks, bass wise, you might have hope of less than average modal problems.  I have idea to best locate the sub. 

One sweet thing your images did is bring back fond memories of starting out years ago...thanks for that.  Neat seeing the little kiddie toys...best of wishes!     

[rooze]

I hope I'm not treading on any toes here, I do realize that most of these 'acoustics' questions result in the recommendation of one or another type of panel or bass-trap etc, but what about using electronic room correction?

Since you've stated a desire to avoid wall panels and the like, it would seem an 'electronic' approach might be your best option.

There are various devices around at various points in price.

Lyngdorf make units which are on the higher end of the price scale, Rives and DEQX can be had more affordably, particularly on the used market (perhaps around $1000 for an earlier generation DEQX unit).

At the lower end, the Behringer units can be used to good effect and can be had used for under $200

The Behringer requires some operator skill, whereas a Lyngdorf RP1 for example, is remarkably simple to use.

Personally I've used a Tact RCS2.0 and a Lyngdorf TDAi 2200 with 'Room Perfect'. The later was an excellent unit, the former not so IME.

Cheers

[TRADERXFAN]

Just some quick ideas...
Wall art can hide acoustic panels for some absorption to so many hard surfaces.

Heavier drapes over windows an option?

Rug can add absorption to floor.

Dipole speakers in mid, and or woofer may help off axis problems, bass.  (like an orion/ super-V etc)

Adding some kind of taller, thick soft object behind the couch can help with back reflections. Be creative. Just has to be above ear height.

[James Romeyn]

I hope I'm not treading on any toes here, I do realize that most of these 'acoustics' questions result in the recommendation of one or another type of panel or bass-trap etc, but what about using electronic room correction?

Since you've stated a desire to avoid wall panels and the like, it would seem an 'electronic' approach might be your best option.

There are various devices around at various points in price.

Lyngdorf make units which are on the higher end of the price scale, Rives and DEQX can be had more affordably, particularly on the used market (perhaps around $1000 for an earlier generation DEQX unit).

At the lower end, the Behringer units can be used to good effect and can be had used for under $200

The Behringer requires some operator skill, whereas a Lyngdorf RP1 for example, is remarkably simple to use.

Personally I've used a Tact RCS2.0 and a Lyngdorf TDAi 2200 with 'Room Perfect'. The later was an excellent unit, the former not so IME.

Cheers

EQ ability to solve the comb filter effect resulting from the furniture: zero, IMHO.  If we were able to list 100% of the physical impediments to good reproduction, furniture right now = over 90%, the rest including the boundaries 10%. 

Till the furnishing comb filtering is solved, there is no room problem, by comparison.  Only smaller speakers mounted as high as possible will solve this as far as I can see.  Beyond a certain height, the driver vertical array must be inverted unless they were designed for such height.

Here's the thing: if you solved in one dimension (FR) the comb filter resulting from the 3-D problem comprising multiple speaker drivers in multiple locations, the fixed reflective furnishings located within 1ms time frame from those various drivers (the highly reflective furniture), and a listener located about 3ms distance, the problem is fixed in a listening space barely if at all larger than the microphone diaphragm.   

[Red Dragon Audio]

ACOUSTIC ART:
These days you can get acoustic panels with artwork printed on the front of them from places like GIK Acoustics and Acoustimac. 
They come in various sizes, stock prints, patterned fabric, custom art, maybe your own photography...so many possibilities.  Just get a few of those panels to start out. 
(please note I'm not affiliated with these companies - just providing some ideas...also the image below has some sales jargon in it...just look at the pretty elephant  )


Then I'd consider plain white panels with nice beveled edges and place as many as you and wife will tolerate on your ceiling/walls.  Perhaps arrange some on the walls/ceiling in geometrically pleasing patterns to create visually appealing designs.  Could do some slightly alternating colors to enhance the designs - white/light grey/soft blue - whatever would fit with your decor and tastes.
There are other companies out there with more of an eye towards aesthetics but still keen on sound control...
http://www.offecct.se/en


More ideas on geometric patterns that no longer look like acoustic panels...fabric furniture...I echo the sentiments of others about getting nice rugs..losing the coffee table...so many ideas! 



BOOKCASE:
If you do a book case perhaps you can leave a few pockets open and place custom size acoustic panels inside those areas. Something like this Ikea book case which has a completely open back.  Place one large panel behind the book case and try to fill it with as few items as possible; a few family pictures, a few books, perhaps a sculpture, soccer trophies...



STREET SOUND ISOLATION:
As far as isolating the sound from the street - that gets a bit trickier because it could involve changing structural aspects.  Some simple tricks would be to make sure all gaps/cracks are sealed up from the outside to prevent sound leaking in.  Since it is an older house the windows probably have a single pane of glass.  Switching to double/triple pane new windows can help reduce sound transmission.  Getting thicker drapes with some extra layers of sound blocking/absorption material would help near the windows.  Maybe a fun project for you and your wife to work on together. 

[jsinger986]

Thanks for all the responses.

I do realize I am limiting what I can do based on the esthetic requirements in the room.  The sound is very important to me but the room esthetics is just as important.  The sound is not even remotely important to my girlfriend though   So there is no chance I'd be able to place anything, even if it's not horrible looking, for purely acoustical reasons. 

 - Can you at least get rid of the coffee table? What about a thick rug between the speakers and the listening position?

Getting rid of coffee table is not likely to happen but I could give it a shot.  A rug however is  something I've been planning on getting.  The current coffee table is a marble.  We were thinking of replacing it with a rounded wooden table (safer for 17 month old)… would that be at least marginally better?

- "What are the main speakers?"

The main speakers are Monitor Audio Silver 9i.
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/314/

The sub is a HSU STF-1
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-1.html

- Do you have available high pass filter you could employ on the mains?

Not sure what that means.

- Till the furnishing comb filtering is solved, there is no room problem, by comparison

You're referring to the coffee table?

- what about using electronic room correction?

I have a Marantz SR5005 that has Audyssey MultEQ.  But honestly, the sound is much better when I put it in Pure Direct mode which bypasses all digital processing.  My source is a Rega RP3 turntable.

I do like the looks of those Soundwave Flo panels.  A big bookshelf is something we want to get.  What placement would be best?  Behind the couch or to the right of the couch.  THose are pretty much the two spots a bookshelf could go.

Thanks for all the help.

[S Clark]

This is really not meant to be a smart ass reply (although I have been accused of such occasionally):  what about headphones?  I really think that they are you best option given the limitations.

[jsinger986]

This is really not meant to be a smart ass reply (although I have been accused of such occasionally):  what about headphones?  I really think that they are you best option given the limitations.

I do have headphones... They can be seen in one of the pics.  I have AKG K702.  I actually went as far as getting a separate headphone amp, a Schiit Lyr
(http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=3).  But I returned it because after much A/B comparison I couldn't hear a difference between the Schiit and the Marantz SR5005 headphone input... which either means that Marantz is a good headphone amp in itself or I have hearing problems.

I like them but headphones can't quite match the feeling when you have a nice wide defined soundstage and bass you can feel.  I was thinking that maybe a better set of headphones may be a better use of money.

[Alex Reynolds]

EQ ability to solve the comb filter effect resulting from the furniture: zero, IMHO.

To be quite fair, your opinion doesn't have to belong in that statement...it is literally quite impossible for EQ to fix time domain issues such as lobing.

To the OP: Panels really are the best option giving everything you've stated. I know most people are picky about the aesthetics but they're really not like this giant ugly thing hanging from the wall! Art can also be added to them for benefits.

Really, the only other suggestions besides acoustic treatment is to completely optimize your position in the room by crawling the speakers and the listening position and doing extensive testing.
If you've got a computer and a microphone handy (preferably omnidirectional) I would suggest checking out Room EQ Wizard: http://gikacoustics.com/room-eq-wizard-tutorial/

Though there aren't any "magical" locations that solve all problems, you might be able to find slightly better positioning that makes certain phenomenon less prominent. A big problem in an untreated room though is that slight change in position can make great changes acoustically. You might lean back and completely lose the benefits you gained by positioning your set up there.

[raysracing]

Isnt Master Set for speaker placement supposed to be a great way to set speakers to work with your room? You could Google it and start there then decide on acoustic treatments.

[JohnR]

To be quite fair, your opinion doesn't have to belong in that statement...it is literally quite impossible for EQ to fix time domain issues such as lobing.

It's literally impossible for acoustic treatment to solve lobing issues as well (and I'm not even sure that it could be considered a "time domain" issue...).

[Alex Reynolds]

It's literally impossible for acoustic treatment to solve lobing issues as well (and I'm not even sure that it could be considered a "time domain" issue...).

I meant lobing due to reflections, not due to multiple speakers. Of course, you're correct in terms of multiple speaker lobing.

By the way, I should have been a bit less dramatic with my statement above. Of course, there are EQs that are indeed made to change the phase of certain bass frequencies at certain timings to clear resonances, so they can fix some time domain issues, but it would be impossible to fix lobing issues from reflections with said EQs.

[Rob Babcock]

I would tend to agree, there isn't much to do with the acoustics if you're not willing to address the acoustics!   Guess I missed that the first time through but if you won't add anything to treat the room, all that's left is placement and electronics.  Some very sophisticated types of EQ can help but it's a bit like using an entire can of Right Guard instead of just taking a shower.

[Nyal Mellor]

This blog article is approaching three years old but still sums up pretty well what room correction can and cannot fix. I also wrote a follow up article on Hi Fi Zine.

[K Shep]

Is there any hope for improving things with my limited options?

Yes purchase this.





TacT 2.2X.

[Nyal Mellor]

Yes purchase this.





TacT 2.2X.

Can one still recommend TacT? I have only heard bad sentiment recently about their company and level of customer service...?

[jimdgoulding]

When you aim to listen seriously rather than casually . .

a) lay down a natural fiber rug and pad in front of your speakers to the back of your sofa (might as well leave it there)
b) move your speakers out quite a bit more into the room and separate them another 18 to 20 inches
c) remove the coffee table
d) move your sofa back so that your listening position makes an equilateral triangle with your speakers after having moved them but not so far as your back is on the wall (adjust the space between your speakers if need be to get a triangle as described)

This will create a larger and more dimensional listening space for music to fill and remove much of the too early reflection you are getting.  When listening it is recommended that you remove your speaker grilles and try tilting your speakers back slightly.  This will cost you nothing (well, cept for a rug, maybe) and you should notice the improvements right away.