[vortrex]

This is the second thread regarding this problem.  Over the several pages of both threads you've gotten some really good advice that has not worked for you.  Maybe it's time to sell everything and start over from scratch?  Or at least replace the integrated?

that doesn't seem like a solution to me.  again, I am kind of hoping to find out what the actual issue is, more so than analog is too noisy and/or your equipment is bad.  those are clearly not the correct answers.  I'll keep experimenting I suppose.

[Quiet Earth]

but this is exactly what I had and it was very bad.  the SUT's are typically 26db, which puts me right back to what I have now at ~65db.

so it sounds like I am better off with a higher output MC (my current is .25mv) and then a phono pre with less gain?  I thought if I dropped the gain significantly with a LOMC it's going to affect the performance of the cart?

You said earlier that the noise was less with the Leben and the SUT.

Zesto Andros phono stage (55db and 65db)
Line Magnetic 218IA integrated

I also tried K&K Maxxed-Out w/A23 SUT (64db, 200ohms output) and Manley Chinook with and without A23 SUT (71db/60db, I think 50ohms output?) phono stages, same issue.

the Leben phono stage with A23 SUT (49db) is the only one that's quiet so far.

The Leben has the least amount of active gain, doesn't it?  I think that active gain is the issue, although gain is gain, and trannies do add gain, but they don't add as much to the noise figure as most active gain stages. But let's not debate that into the ground for right now. Consider this :

You enjoy your records but the one thing that keeps you from getting the most enjoyment out of them is noise. You are not alone. You should be looking at the very best high output cartridges that you can afford and skip all of the gain that is needed for moving coils. Get a nice, simple phono stage with about 35dB of gain and the very best cartridge that has at least 5mV output. Why fight a problem that you will never win?

You have alternatives for good vinyl playback. You don't have to own a LOMC.

[Folsom]

Phono preamplifiers are often made to cover a very wide, sort of indiscriminate, frequency range. This combined with the high gain may be the problem, more than just the gain itself. This could also be enhanced if both are direct coupled (I don't want to explain that). Either way the issue may be with the nature of the beast, which just makes more noise (phono preamp).

What was the max listening volume with the CD player? If it is much lower, we know the gain is the only thing to be overly concerned about.

Options for lowering the gain pre-amplifier without coloration, TVC based volume control, Lighternote, or perhaps Warpspeed volume controller. Which one, well up to you. My guess is the lighternote is the best performer. Finding one in a case might not be super easy, but you could probably pay someone for not too much to do so, as it isn't hard if you buy a pre-assembled one (VERY minor soldering). TVC's are nice, but the most expensive option and not everyone likes them.

Otherwise change the gain somewhere...

[vortrex]

yes, correct on the Leben, that is only 49db total with the SUT.  your post said to get a 40db pre and add a SUT, which would put me back at the same gain I have now.  the Leben is the only phono stage I know of with such a low MM gain of ~23db.

I think what people reading this thread are having a hard time understanding is the noise level I have is abnormal, for LOMC or otherwise.  LOMC would not have a market at all if it were like this in all systems. 

one of my exact same LOMC setups (K&K, A23 SUT, 103R) with my previous amp was dead quiet.  sure, then that sounds like it points to the amp as the issue, but like I mentioned, it works fine with other sources.  then that points back to the phono pre being too noisy.  however, as one poster mentioned, and pretty much all the reviews, these phono stages have been called out for being very quiet.  then we are back at gain being the only difference in the various setups...

[vortrex]

What was the max listening volume with the CD player? If it is much lower, we know the gain is the only thing to be overly concerned about.

I hooked up the Oppo and my max listening level is pretty much exactly the same as analog, right about 9 o'clock.

[Quiet Earth]

Did your BAT amp have as much gain as the LineMagnetic? I don't remember......

I imagine the LineMagnetic has at least 30dB of gain, probably more. Add that to 60dB of phono gain and you may have 90 to 100 dB of gain. Thats more gain than a microphone preamp uses in a recording studio. That's just a lot of gain. The odds are against you.

[Quiet Earth]

I hooked up the Oppo and my max listening level is pretty much exactly the same as analog, right about 9 o'clock.

That right there shows me that the extra noise is comming from the phono set up. Get a moving magnet and a Leben and you will be happy.


Edit....... Ok, you don't have to have a Leben, but no more than 40 dB of phono gain with the Line Magnetic.

[vortrex]

Did your BAT amp have as much gain as the LineMagnetic? I don't remember......

I imagine the LineMagnetic has at least 30dB of gain, probably more. Add that to 60dB of phono gain and you may have 90 to 100 dB of gain. Thats more gain than a microphone preamp uses in a recording studio. That's just a lot of gain. The odds are against you.

the BAT had 10db less.  the LM has a total of 35db.  when you look at something like the KAB gain calculator and they say I need ~61db of gain for my cart, I thought that meant before the amp?  or, are you allowed to include the amp gain into the equation?  that was my other question earlier...if I decrease the gain by a large amount before my amp, is my cart performance going to suffer?  with the Leben I did not have any time to test this out.

[vortrex]

That right there shows me that the extra noise is comming from the phono set up. Get a moving magnet and a Leben and you will be happy.

I've had MM and don't feel it can compete with MC, especially MC with a SUT involved.  I would much rather deal with the noise than go to an inferior (to me) cart setup.  now we are back again at the phono pre being the problem, but why would it be silent in other systems?

doesn't a typical amp/pre-amp setup have the same amount of gain that my integrated has?  how is everyone else pulling this off with acceptable noise levels?

[Quiet Earth]

I would count all of the gain when it comes to getting a handle on your noise. Also, factor in the speaker efficiency. Go get a set of Klipshhorns and come back an tell us if you suddenly notice hum in your system. (Ok, don't do that. Just sayin')

I don't use a calculator, just common sense. Too much gain, SYSTEM GAIN, is too much noise.

You don't need a calculator either, because now you have all of the data and experience you need to know what will make noise, and what won't. For example, if you put your BAT amp back in the system, the noise would drop by about 10dB because there is 10dB less gain in the system. If you bought Klipshorns you would notice however many dB of noise the efficiency increase is between those and your current speakers. System gain....... Get it?

That's basically how it is, although someone will probably want to argue the effect of noise figure being geenrated in only the first two active stages. Who cares. Just the basic stuff is what we're after here.


With a high gain amp, you have to consider the quietness of your source component. A low output cartridge with more than 40 dB of gain will not be quiet. That's all there is to it.

(The emphasis of my argument being based on noise alone.)

[Quiet Earth]

I've had MM and don't feel it can compete with MC, especially MC with a SUT involved.  I would much rather deal with the noise than go to an inferior (to me) cart setup.  now we are back again at the phono pre being the problem, but why would it be silent in other systems?

doesn't a typical amp/pre-amp setup have the same amount of gain that my integrated has?  how is everyone else pulling this off with acceptable noise levels?

You're one post ahead of me.

Which MM carts have you tried? and with which pre?


This is getting long..... Not sure if I can hang here for much longer, so I may be delayed in my next reply.

I think your expectations need a checkup..... But I say that with honest and kind feelings.

[Quiet Earth]

  how is everyone else pulling this off with acceptable noise levels?

Lower gain in the amp, less efficient speakers, and last but not least, they are not. It doesn't bother some people.

[vortrex]

You're one post ahead of me.

Which MM carts have you tried? and with which pre?

This is getting long..... Not sure if I can hang here for much longer, so I may be delayed in my next reply.

I think your expectations need a checkup..... But I say that with honest and kind feelings.

Zephyr with K&K.  we probably should not turn this into a MM vs MC debate.  MC must work otherwise it wouldn't be used so much.

how could the same phono pre be dead silent (I am not even expecting this) in one system and sound like a 747 taking off in mine with the volume at max?

[Quiet Earth]

I don't know.

Check this out. I have never heard a LOMC set up that is dead quiet. The quietest and best I have heard involved a very expensive SUT into a MM phono, and there was hum present instead of noise. So, if you have heard a dead quiet LOMC set up, you should be explaining to us how you achieved it.


You have more experience in this matter than me.

[vortrex]

Check this out. I have never heard a LOMC set up that is dead quiet. The quietest and best I have heard involved a very expensive SUT into a MM phono, and there was hum present instead of noise. So, if you have heard a dead quiet LOMC set up, you should be explaining to us how you achieved it.

I'm going by what the other poster said regarding my same phono pre.

[wakibaki]

Why, exactly, you perceive your system as performing worse than other people's systems is hard to say.

All of the solutions or ways of understanding the problem are rejected by you, for one reason or another.

I remember a scenario from a book by a guy called Eric Berne, called Games People Play.

This game was called 'Why don't you ~ Yes, but...'

The main protagonist would pose a problem to people in the room. People would suggest solutions. They'd say 'Why don't you try this...' or 'Why don't you try that...'  For every time a solution was proposed, the person with the 'problem' would come up with an objection to the solution, saying, 'Yes, but...'

Sound familiar?

The people with the solutions are simply trying to be helpful, they do not know that they are involved in a game.

The person with the problem revels in the attention and interaction he is getting, which he doesn't get normally.

It could be that you are just mistaken.

It could be that you are falsely reporting the situation because you enjoy the attention you are getting through this thread.

w

[Folsom]

I don't know.

Check this out. I have never heard a LOMC set up that is dead quiet. The quietest and best I have heard involved a very expensive SUT into a MM phono, and there was hum present instead of noise. So, if you have heard a dead quiet LOMC set up, you should be explaining to us how you achieved it.

Right, nature of the beast. The way phono pre-amplifiers work tends to be extended and subjectable to noise. I've never heard an overly quiet one either.

The speakers moving may not be the same frequency you are hearing. In fact if you see them moving a lot it is probably a much lower frequency, than the noise. I'm going to guess they are pretty efficient speakers so visible moving in and out is associated with low frequency. The signal to noise ratio in the amplifier may just not be nearly as good as the phono's, but the Oppo could be closer. You've got lower gain and SNR in the Oppo so it won't be taxing the preamp stage of the amplifier. That and the Oppo probably doesn't do anymore than 20hz-20khz. The phono stage is likely to be 15hz-35khz or higher, and at a much more dynamic (high SNR) could certainly open the possibility for problems.

[vortrex]

I'm going to guess they are pretty efficient speakers so visible moving in and out is associated with low frequency.

The signal to noise ratio in the amplifier may just not be nearly as good as the phono's, but the Oppo could be closer. You've got lower gain and SNR in the Oppo so it won't be taxing the preamp stage of the amplifier.

most of the speakers I have tried are in the mid to upper 80's.

the integrated SNR is 87db.

[Quiet Earth]

Vortrex,

If we go way back, and if I remember correctly (uh-oh... ), you started noticing noise as a problem after you replaced your BAT amplifier with the LineMagnetic right? If that is basically true, then you probably had a fair amount of phono related noise the whole time you were using the BAT but you just never noticed it. The extra 10dB of gain that you picked up in the LineMagnetic allowed you to hear the noise and pay more attention to it. 10dB is a lot of gain, no matter where you place it.

You asked earlier if you should include the gain of your amp in you calculations. The answer is yes. Not necessarily for the KAB calculator, but for your own calculations. Try dropping your phono gain calculations by 10 dB and see if that gets you closer to where you want to be. (Subtract 10dB from the phono since you picked up 10dB in the amp.)

You said the Leben with the step up was quiet. Why did you change it then? If you didn't like the sound of that combo, try using an active with only 49dB.

[jimdgoulding]

Good post, Ouiet.