[raysracing]

I have a problem that has been plaguing me for weeks. The soundstage on some songs, albums, (MP3, Vinyl) resides on the left wall.With eyes closed you would swear there is a speaker on the left wall it is that striking.  Not every song does it, but sometimes it is dramatic.

The boxes in the back corners are my bass trap material which I will make into 4" thick bass traps come spring when I can do them outside.  I have moved the speakers so many times and had a friend who has really good "ears" for tuning and we got it better. The acoustic matt behind helped a ton too, but it is so ugly.  It is important to state I have little expendable income for expensive panels so cheap remedies are best. 
Soundstage in general in this room is so difficult.






Where to begin if this is even possible from a picture.

My speakers are Tekton Lore's and I have noticed that turning them in does not work and I need to sit absurdly far back which is why they are close together now and facing nearly straight ahead. Crazy speaker/room combo.

[John Casler]

 Assuming you are sitting in the Sweet Spot it sounds like something is wired "out of phase".

Check the phasing at the amp and speaker

As well, swap L&R speaker and see if it changes to the other wall.

Also try sitting on a Kitchen chair about 3 ft from the speakers to see if you have a solid center image.  If so, move the chair back in 1-2 ft increments until you hear the skew to the left. (do this AFTER checking for proper phasing)

What do you mean:

I need to sit absurdly far back

[raysracing]

Phasing is ok as it has been checked so many times and this has been going on through several equipment changes (amps,pre amps).

TO me absurdly far back is when the speakers were 5' apart the image finally spread evenly (like a wall of sound lacking fine placement of instruments, but not skewed) at about 15' back which is not reasonable for the room usability.

Also and this happens all of the time even if say a drum kit has good placement (snare seems to the right, bass toms left, hi hat right the placement shifts on a particular point in time in the music as if reflections have moved the sound to sounding like it is coming out of one speaker now, not imaging anymore. Then just as fast as it does this it can go away and the imaging seems real again.

This is driving me nuts.

[Pete Schumacher]

It's difficult to evaluate without a measuring system, but it may be due to a mis-wire of one of the tweeters.  If one of them is out of phase, there could be a suckout of the response around the XO point which could skew the imaging badly.  And with the image to the left, I'd guess it's the right speaker that has the issue.  And I stress "guess."

[John Casler]

Phasing is ok as it has been checked so many times and this has been going on through several equipment changes (amps,pre amps).

TO me absurdly far back is when the speakers were 5' apart the image finally spread evenly (like a wall of sound lacking fine placement of instruments, but not skewed) at about 15' back which is not reasonable for the room usability.

Also and this happens all of the time even if say a drum kit has good placement (snare seems to the right, bass toms left, hi hat right the placement shifts on a particular point in time in the music as if reflections have moved the sound to sounding like it is coming out of one speaker now, not imaging anymore. Then just as fast as it does this it can go away and the imaging seems real again.

This is driving me nuts.

I'm with Pete and still "feel" from your description that there is a phasing issue (perhaps in the actual speaker drivers themselves).

Did you try moving the Left to the Right (swapping L&R)?

[raysracing]

Gentleman thank you. TOnight listening is over, but before I ask another question I will play one of the tracks where this is very strong (on the new Wayne Shorter album) then swap speakers and see if it shifts to the right wall.

I have had other odd reflection problems that were just as dramatic, but moving furniture fixed this. But the speakers have never been swapped right for left.  again I have been listening to music for decades and have had good rooms and bad rooms and great imaging set ups and poor (this one), but never moving images or ones that stick to a side wall.

[Saturn94]

Is the issue random or does it always happen with particular tracks?

[raysracing]

Is the issue random or does it always happen with particular tracks?

I just got a call from a friend who thinks it might be my pre-amp which is a home made optocoupler design which another one of similar architecture is doing the same thing. Will keep you posted.

But to answer it is very random. I believe I can play a track 4 times in a row and get 2 different results. But I believe imaging on these model speakers can be fantastic and I shouldnt be struggling like this.

I will keep you all informed.

[Saturn94]

Given the random nature I'm inclined to believe its a problem with an upstream component and not the speakers.  It very well could be your preamp as your friend suggested.

I had something similar happen, turned out to be one of the channels in an analog equalizer I was using at the time. I've also had a bad interconnect cable cause a similar issue.

If your speakers were out of phase, the effect your getting would be more consistent and not so random.

[raysracing]

Saturn this stuff will drive toy crazy. Especially when you start to question your sanity.

[Saturn94]

Saturn this stuff will drive toy crazy. Especially when you start to question your sanity.

Hehehe....so true!

[Saturn94]

Btw, there's a methodical way to indentify the offending component.  You may already know this, but I thought I'd throw this out there just in case it helps you or anyone else reading this.

1.  Switch the speaker cables.  Does the problem stay in the same channel?  If so, then the speaker is the problem.  If not, then the problem is upstream.

2.  If #1 indicates its not the speakers, next try switching the left and right interconnects feeding the amp.  If the problem stays in the same channel, then the amp is the problem.  If not, then it's further upstream.

3.  Just keep repeating upstream and you will find the offending component.

 

[Russell Dawkins]

This is another problem where the "mono trick" could be used to:
1/  systematically eliminate the speakers as the source of the problem (if they're not) and
2/ improve imaging if placement is part of the problem.

I can't imagine how a small amount, at least, of toe-in wouldn't help, given the general configuration of long and narrow room.

I would start by setting the speakers a little wider and toe them in - this is after wiring them to play genuine mono, assuming your amplifier (you didn't mention the brand) can take two speakers wired in parallel. Connect both of your speakers to the same output (left or right channel) for a perfect mono source, and see if the image is not dead center, with none of this phantom image on the wall. White or pink noise is the most demanding test. In an ideal world, with pink noise as a signal, the image would seem to be a narrow vertical slit between the speakers. With a little experience, you could tell if the woofers were in phase and the tweeters out, by the fact that the bass frequencies would seem to come from the center and the highs would appear to come from outside the speaker positions. Vice versa, too, of course. You can also learn to identify problem areas in that the image may widen at certain frequencies if the drivers or crossover components covering that range of frequencies don't match well enough. A close match will produce a narrow, crisp and focused image through the driver's range.

You can accomplish all this with the simple push of the mono button (if you have one) on your preamp, but by doing it that way, you will not eliminate the pre or power amp as the problem since the variability in the performance of both the pre and power amp channels is typically enough to spoil the focus of the mono image.

If you get a nice coherent mono image then the problem is almost certain to be neither your speakers nor your room but upstream, and when you re-wire back to stereo and correct whatever the problem is, you will be greeted with the best stereo image you have yet heard from those speakers in that room.

[raysracing]

Very interesting tests. Thank you.

[raysracing]

Two problems, one solved. I did have the left speaker out of phase. Thanks for making me check again.

Now to wait for the shifting of the image then unplug the pre and go direct to the amp and replay that segment. Even after correcting the phase I could still hear the center move to the left a foot for awhile then some instruments suddenly come out of position.

[Saturn94]

Two problems, one solved. I did have the left speaker out of phase. Thanks for making me check again.

Now to wait for the shifting of the image then unplug the pre and go direct to the amp and replay that segment. Even after correcting the phase I could still hear the center move to the left a foot for awhile then some instruments suddenly come out of position.

While its still possible that the tweeter in your right speaker might be going in and out, I suspect your problem is further upstream like I mentioned early.  Using the steps I mentioned will isolate the problem component.

[raysracing]

Saturn I did some troubleshooting and I think I am down to just being out of phase now. Whew.  I read on Vinyl ladies set-ups she used Master Set on her speakers so I decided to give it a try on mine.  By far the most centered I have heard vocals and I now know the importance of even pressure levels form each speaker as a tuning option.  I will probably redo the Master set several times because it is fun, but for now I am getting closer to my ideal imaging on the Tektons. I can move left and right, forward and back and the sound stays almost the same. I have a spot on the right that is a bit louder, but I moved the non anchor speaker a touch and it seemed ot alleviate the issue after replaying the same bass line from Jennifer Warnes track "The Tale of the Runaway Horse."

I still feel the sound is weighted left too often, but on some tracks I dont and doing A-B comparisons and removing gear when the sound is left is not conclusive of anything right now.

[jimdgoulding]

I'd try sitting closer, too, even with Masterset but not so close as you would be inside of your resulting triangle. 

[Saturn94]

Saturn I did some troubleshooting and I think I am down to just being out of phase now. Whew.  I read on Vinyl ladies set-ups she used Master Set on her speakers so I decided to give it a try on mine.  By far the most centered I have heard vocals and I now know the importance of even pressure levels form each speaker as a tuning option.  I will probably redo the Master set several times because it is fun, but for now I am getting closer to my ideal imaging on the Tektons. I can move left and right, forward and back and the sound stays almost the same. I have a spot on the right that is a bit louder, but I moved the non anchor speaker a touch and it seemed ot alleviate the issue after replaying the same bass line from Jennifer Warnes track "The Tale of the Runaway Horse."

I still feel the sound is weighted left too often, but on some tracks I dont and doing A-B comparisons and removing gear when the sound is left is not conclusive of anything right now.

That's great to hear.

[Bill A]

I still feel the sound is weighted left too often, but on some tracks I dont and doing A-B comparisons and removing gear when the sound is left is not conclusive of anything right now.

Just a thought, but have had your hearing checked?  A deficit in one ear at certain frequencies will cause an image shift. I know that that is the last thing a listener ever wants to consider, but it is a possibility.

Bill