Mensa DIO audition

Tyson · « **on:** 10 Feb 2003, 12:37 am »

Well, yesterday, we had a mini-DAM get together, consisting of me, Mike, Jason, and Wayne, mainly to do some listening to some of Wayne's new stuff, particularly a new mod he wanted feedback on with the Mensa DIO.

So, we I get there after everyone else (had to stop off and get donuts for the whole crew), and they are in the middle of doing RTA on Jason's room. Gotta say, that the overall response Jason was getting was quite smooth, with just a few bass peaks. The QSC that Jason is using as a bass amp for his VMPS Original subs has a very nifty digital EQ module that can be put in it, and it was perfect for addressing the room modes in Jason's listening room. After EQ'ing the bass smooth, we sat down for some serious listening.

First up was the standard Mensa DIO, and I have to admit it was very nice, compared to the smArt DIO I've been using at home. We all agreed it sounded quite good. Then Wayne opens up the DIO and starts fooling around with the innards. Que up the same song again. MUCH better focus and even smoother sounding. The somewhat sibilant nature of the Norah Jones track we were listening to was tamed quite a bit as well. In the Soundstage, there was signifigantly more specificity to the images. Bass was cleaner. The only downside I noted was that the images (while no longer "fuzzy"), were so focused, that they seemed to have shrunk. The soundstage was still wide and deep, but the individual voices and instruments seemed to have gotten physically smaller.

Wayne then opened up the Mensa yet again and did some more stuff with the innards. Back on goes Norah. Wow, very nice. Same general impressions of better focus and cleaner, less sibilant sound as before, but the images were back to being life sized again. This was really, really nice.

Then Wayne revealed what the changes were and it was one of those "slap yourself updside the head it's so obvious" type of things. I'll let Wayne specify exactly what was done, but when we put the smArt back on after listening to the Einstein DIO (hehehe), it sounded like a blanket had been thrown over the speakers. Pretty impressive.

Some other things we did - more comparisons between the high end Kinber speaker wire and the Nitro speaker wire - general concensus was that the Nitro was more dynamic and forward sounding, but not as smooth as the Kimber, or quite as "fleshed out". For Kodo and Black Sabbath (Mike insisted

) the preference was for the Nitro, it was more dynamic, had a better toe tapping factor, but for Norah the preference was for the Kimbers, it was just a nicer sound that fit the music better.

We also did a comparison between the Radii tubed preamp and the Symphonic Line Erleuchtung. The Radii actually has better quality parts in it cause Wayne ordered it with all super-premium parts (TRT's, Nichicons, etc. . .), and while the Erleuchtung has premium parts, it's not at that level. BUT, the circuit and overall design must be extremely good, cause the Radii got it's little hiney kicked. The SL preamp was just smoother, more beautiful, more coherent, and just plain flat out more musical. Of course, the Radii is also 1/5th the price, so in price/performance, the Radii is still about the best I've heard. On an absolute scale, the SL is the best I've heard. And in Jason's system, the SL was totally quiet, no noise or RFI problems, which leads me to the conclusion that it's either the extreme ammount of RFI I have at my location (100 feet up, and next to downtown Denver), or piss poor AC power in my building that is causing my noise problems. Mike encouraged my to have an electrician out to check my wiring before giving up on the SL, and that's exactly what I'm going to do.

So, that's it for now. Hopefully Wayne will be along to explain the mod he did on the Mensa that made it sound so good, and either Mike or Jason will chime in too.

Pez · « **Reply #1 on:** 10 Feb 2003, 12:54 am »

I will chime in now.

*Chime*

jackman · « **Reply #2 on:** 10 Feb 2003, 12:58 am »

Great review! Now I can't wait for Wayne's explanation of what "magic" or Mojo he has worked with the innards. I hope this doesn't mean a price increase...I'm shelling out too much of the green stuff but want to get my DIO sooped up soon.

Thanks for the information!

Jackman

Pez · « **Reply #3 on:** 10 Feb 2003, 01:08 am »

But seriously folks

I like these laid back type sessions. Of course leaving donut duty to Tyson was a big mistake. He only brought 2 bear claws

Moron.

Any way the digital EQ for the QSC amp did amazing things in my room as far as taming and extending bass. I have to admit I was pretty impressed with the way my rooms natural response measured when running a frequency sweep, but when we ran the real time analyzer all the world went to shit because it adds reflection and all those nice room anomalies that a frequency sweep fails to pick up. After EQing the bass I was astonished. It seemed more natural and in balance. I noticed that the fullness of vocals really came out.

The dio has really come a long way in the capable hands of Wayne. I could not believe how much better it sounded than the 777 cd output. Just a natural unveiled performance the whole way around. Wayne came by today to pick it up and I thought "eh i won't hear much of a difference now that the 777 and the Mensa are not side by side" I turned on some tunes after the mensa and the digital EQ were taken out of my system and felt really really depressed.

The difference was not small. Vocals that were full and recessed in the soundstage now sounded recessed and empty. Damn now I need both pieces.

Any way I am now in the process of retuning my system to get the maximum out of it until I get the Mensa/Digital EQ combo.

Jay S · « **Reply #4 on:** 10 Feb 2003, 01:16 am »

Interesting stuff! Will be looking forward to hearing about the lastest tweaks to the DI/O!

By the way, what digital EQ were you guys using and how was it set up?

Pez · « **Reply #5 on:** 10 Feb 2003, 01:20 am »

The Digital EQ we used was the EQ designed specifically for the DCA series of the QSC amps. It literally plugs into a special port on the back of the amp which was very convinient. It will work with any amp (as long as you have XLR's or adapters) with an extra set of cables.

mgalusha · « **Reply #6 on:** 10 Feb 2003, 05:05 am »

Not a lot to add, as Tyson has provided his usual through report. As previously mentioned, the latest iteration of the DI/O was quite a bit better than the current "MENSA" version. On Norah Jones' vocals it was quite a bit less harsh sounding and overall, the sound was more organic, less artificial and smoother. Drums had more of a wooden resonance for example. Wayne requested that I bring some older CD's that are not very exactly audiophile quality to see if the latest DI/O updates would make them more listenable.

After the Norah Jones, I put in some Black Sabbath and both Wayne and I thought it sounded quite good considering the vintage. Of course we are a bit older than J & T and found it muce more palateable than they did.

The Symphonic Line Erleuchtung is a beautiful piece and sounded very, very nice in Jason's system. It seemed to be exceptionally neutral and just let the music through without emphesis on any particular area of the signal.

The quick sweep of Jason's system and room was quite flat from about 200hz all the way up. I believe it was within about 2db in room. There was a room mode in the bass around 60hz which Wayne was able to address with the EQ in the QSC amp driving the subs. Overall, it was much better than I expected. This a "quick sweep" which windows out all the reflections and it was not quite as nice when we ran the RTA with a pink noise signal, but still not bad. For anyone who has not used it, the TrueRTA package from TrueAudio.com works pretty well and is reasonably priced at USD $99.00.

Mike

Wayne1 · « **Reply #7 on:** 10 Feb 2003, 03:33 pm »

Hello all,

Sorry I have not been able to respond earlier. My son had three inline hockey games yesterday 45 miles apart, so I spent a very good portion of the day on the road.

The QSC DSP is the DSP-4 http://www.qscaudio.com/products/dsp/dsp4/dsp4.htm

It is a VERY useful piece of gear.

It plugs right into the back of the QSC DCA amps that Jason and I own.

If you do not have one of these amps you can get an optional power supply and then use the XLR ins and outs.

All of the controls for this piece are run off of your computer. It connects up through a RS-232 port. The software is very powerfull and fairly easy to use.

We used a Behringer ECM8000 Measurement Microphone going into a M-Audio DMP3 Microhone Preamp into Mike's laptop. We also used TrueRTA.

TrueRTA already has the compensation curves preloaded for this mike.

It was very easy to run the pink noise from TrueRTA into Jason's system and see what his room response actually was. Then opening up the DSP software, we assigned different parametric EQ's to cover the frequencies where there were "problems". It took a little while to get used to the program but it was easy to dial in a flatter response.

The DSP could also be used for a crossover, if need be.

I will talk about the newest, latest and greatest mod to the DI/O later on, I do have to work some time

I will say that it involves a resonance control treatment of the digital board ICs

pjchappy · « **Reply #8 on:** 10 Feb 2003, 05:52 pm »

Awwww come on Wayne,

I just got my Mensa back and your already doing more mods!!!!

Well, just let me know how much!

p

PeteG · « **Reply #9 on:** 11 Feb 2003, 01:04 am »

Good stuff guys,
Jason's room response sounds great I wish my was that good.
what size is his room.

And what Norah Jones CD are you guys referring to.

-Pete

Wayne1 · « **Reply #10 on:** 11 Feb 2003, 09:43 pm »

I have gotten a little caught up, so here is what happened on Saturday.

When Tyson finally showed up, I had the Mensa DI/O hooked up with a "treated" digital board in it. We played a track from Norah Jones. I then removed the digital board and replaced it with one that was identical to it, except it had not been "treated". I then played the same track.

I asked the guys if they could hear a difference. They all replied that they could hear a BIG difference and asked me to switch back whatever I did. I put the "treated" board back in and played the same track again.

Tyson went into this long winded explanation about how he heard major soundstage differences and how the music was far more involving with whatever he had just listened to. He went off on how with the "treated" board Norah Jones sounded a lot younger and more innocent and it brought out the dirty old man, pervert in him. Well, we all moved away from him after that statement

Mike and Jason were a lot more to the point. They both said the changes were more musical and less analytical.

I then explained that each board was identical electrically. That what I had done was to treat each of the ICs on the digital board with a special lacquer, made in Germany, that was supposed to reduce any mechanical resonances from the chip itself.

The explanation the treatment sounds like black magic and the inventor of the lacquer readily admits he doesn't know HOW it works, but it DOES work.

I have reached an aggrement with Charles Altmann, the inventor, to be able to offer the treatment to my customers at a very reasonable price.

He calls the lacquer Tube-O-Lator.

Here is a link to his website http://www.altmann.haan.de/tubeolator/default.htm

He makes some pretty outrageous claims, but the treatment DOES work. It does improve the sound of the DI/O.

I also had an op-amp IC that I treated. I swapped out the op-amp next, for the group and the sound changed again. It was not as impressive a change as the digital board, but it did improve the sound even more.

I have added the treatment to my website.

I will charge $40.00 to treat the digital board and the op-amp IC.

If some of the DIY types want to try it out themselves, Mr. Altmann sells small 0.5 ml vials for $60.00.

Marbles · « **Reply #11 on:** 11 Feb 2003, 09:57 pm »

Quote from: Wayne1

If some of the DIY types want to try it out themselves, Mr. Altmann sells small 0.5 ml vials for $60.00.

DAMN!!! That's more expensive than Cocaine, Heroin or Plutonium!!!

Wayne1 · « **Reply #12 on:** 11 Feb 2003, 10:20 pm »

Quote

DAMN!!! That's more expensive than Cocaine, Heroin or Plutonium!!!

That may be so, but you would have to spend A LOT more to make as big a change in sound as this stuff makes.

HOW much have you spent on amps in the last year, Marbles?

Brad · « **Reply #13 on:** 11 Feb 2003, 10:32 pm »

Not as much as he spent on p0rn.....

Marbles · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 Feb 2003, 10:43 pm »

Hey, I didn't say I didn't want "Da Bomb" treatment

and for the record, I get my porn for free, or at least for net access charges

How much have I spent on amps???? Now your sounding like my WIFE!!!
Hahahaha

Actually the treatment cost are very reasonable AFAIC, I was commenting on the cost of the material. At least based on what I can remember from my college daze, .5 ml is a very small amount.....

Jay S · « **Reply #15 on:** 12 Feb 2003, 04:01 am »

Wayne,

Wow, congrats on yet another successful upgrade. Altmann mentioned on his site that this treatment was the 'secret weapon' behind his $6k dac.

My Mensa may be coming back to you for the treatment -- I wonder how many frequent flyer miles it has by now.

If I send it back I'll want more than just the coating in order to make the downtime worthwhile.... how much would it cost to cryo the board? Would you cryo before applying the coating? I guess I'd also send back the digital cable for cryo.

If I do decide to open up the DI/O and apply the coating myself, are there any special precautions we should take? Is it hard to identify which chips to coat? (I've never looked under the hood of the DI/O).

By the way, I like your description of Tyson's description of the how the coating changed the way Norah Jones sounded. I saw her in concert in HK a few weeks ago. Hmm, should we call this the D.O.M. DI/O? Dirty Old Mensa?

Tyson · « **Reply #16 on:** 12 Feb 2003, 04:20 am »

Quote

He went off on how with the "treated" board Norah Jones sounded a lot younger and more innocent and it brought out the dirty old man, pervert in him. Well, we all moved away from him after that statement

No need for alarm, since none of you are nubile young women

Wayne1 · « **Reply #17 on:** 12 Feb 2003, 02:06 pm »

Jay,

As you already have the Mensa upgrade, you really don't have to send back the whole DI/O. You can remove the top of the case and carefully pull straight up, the small circuit board that is on top. This is the digital board. It is connected by 2 sets of 10 pin connectors.

That is really all you need to send to me. You can also VERY carefully remove the 14 pin IC surrounded by all the resistors directly under the digital board. This is the op-amp. Part of the smART mod is to add a socket so the chip can be removed. You do need to be careful not to bend any of the pins. You also need to pay VERY close attention when reinserting the chip to make sure all of the pins go into the right sockets.

If you do not feel comfortable with this, then send it back. I am sure I can find something else to do to it to make the trip worthwhile

At this point, I do not suggest Cryo treating the DI/O. The lacquer makes a lot bigger difference in the sound, it is cheaper and takes less time.

jackman · « **Reply #18 on:** 12 Feb 2003, 03:26 pm »

Wayne, after the Smart mod, can we try different opamps? I have some opa 627's, is this chip a drop-in substitute for the existing one?

doug s. · « **Reply #19 on:** 12 Feb 2003, 03:40 pm »

jackman, i believe the opa 627 is different - does it have 7 pins/side? if not, then it's not plug-n-play. a french guy - claude - used this chip in his mods, i believe, but he had to fab a separate board for it. search the audio asylum or the yahoo diomods site, for the info... you can go to texas instruments' site & search for a lt1362, to see the plug-n-play op-amps... plug-n-play, if the socket has been installed, that is!

wayne, i've seen that site re: the laquer stuff - always wondered if it worked. i guess so!

any thoughts about yust putting some blu-tack, or someting similar on the chips? this is what i did to the op-amp, but haven't tried it on the digital board chips...

doug s.