Anti-skating

Wayner · « **Reply #40 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 02:20 pm »

So neo, your saying that setting AS could actually be fun (with the right Rx).......

Maybe the right answer is what ever sounds good to your own ears. However, I'm not going to reset my anti-skate thru various parts of the record and keep a log book. That sound like a worse O/C disorder then mine.....

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #41 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 02:46 pm »

Quote from: BobM on 28 Mar 2013, 01:34 pm

I'm pretty sure I've posted this before, but here it is again ...

Anti skate can be set by ear. Find a record with some vocals and some decent micro-dynamics. Then set the force to zero. This works best with someone helping you, but you can do it yourself if you're patient.

Listen to the right channel and you should hear it almost lower in dynamic volume than the left (a bit recessed). Slowly turn the tracking force up, I mean very slowly a wee bit at a time. Eventually you should start to hear the right channel coming up and getting closer to what the left channel is producing dynamically. Then as you get higher you should hear both channels sounding more dynamic and just better and better. Move the anti-skate up very slowly now.

At last you will hear a fairly dramatic drop off in the quality of both channels. You have now gone a wee bit too far. Back it off a notch and you have optomized your anti-skate.

Enjoy,
Bob

Do you do this on the first track of your chosen record? If so, then how does the last track of the same record side usually sound?

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #42 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 03:47 pm »

Quote from: BobM on 28 Mar 2013, 01:34 pm

I'm pretty sure I've posted this before, but here it is again ...

Anti skate can be set by ear. Find a record with some vocals and some decent micro-dynamics. Then set the force to zero. This works best with someone helping you, but you can do it yourself if you're patient.

Listen to the right channel and you should hear it almost lower in dynamic volume than the left (a bit recessed). Slowly turn the tracking force up, I mean very slowly a wee bit at a time. Eventually you should start to hear the right channel coming up and getting closer to what the left channel is producing dynamically. Then as you get higher you should hear both channels sounding more dynamic and just better and better. Move the anti-skate up very slowly now.

At last you will hear a fairly dramatic drop off in the quality of both channels. You have now gone a wee bit too far. Back it off a notch and you have optomized your anti-skate.

Enjoy,
Bob

Yes, this is the method described in "the Guru" paper on turntable setup that I linked to previously. I agree with the premise, it's a little harder to do in practice and repeat to get the same result consistently. Perhaps I just need better ears. I would go back to fine tune as per instructions, and get different results, so then I tried it again from the beginning and would get different results. I finally gave up and use it one of my tools to fine tune anti-bias force, not the primary method.

Devil Doc · « **Reply #43 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 04:39 pm »

Maybe I'm not OCD enough to be an audiophile, but I am enjoying the debate. My cartridge manufacturer states that anti-skate should be approx 1/2 VTF, which is around .9 . My TT manufacturer states time is better spent listening to music than fooling with AS. It's working for me.

Doc

JBrahms · « **Reply #44 on:** 28 Mar 2013, 04:51 pm »

I know that some gearheads (I use the term respectfully) love fiddling with this stuff, but I'll admit that it makes me crazy and it's the kind of thing that makes me want to sell all my records.

It's one reason I found myself with the same VPI 'table and unipiovot arm for the last 13 years, making great music with a Benz Glider and now a Dynavector 20x. Do I totally believe VPI's explanation of why anti-skate doesn't matter? - well, I really want to.

In all other aspects of this hobby I'm the picky a-hole, moving my speakers a half-inch at a time, etc, to extract every possible benefit, but with this turntable stuff I just get it close enough and surrender.

andyr · « **Reply #45 on:** 30 Mar 2013, 11:09 am »

Quote from: Ericus Rex on 28 Mar 2013, 02:46 pm

Do you do this on the first track of your chosen record? If so, then how does the last track of the same record side usually sound?

Another post of yours which convinces me you are in the know!

AIUI, the amount of AS required ... varies across the groove annulus. So, yes, you can't set it "correctly" if the AS track on a Test Record is the first track - coz there will be a different amount required for the last track ... and the middle track.

Which is why, much as I respect Allen Wright and his "Guru" setup paper ... I find it curious that he doesn't specify whereabouts on the annulus, you should attempt to optimise AS.

So I rely on a test LP having the AS tracks in the middle of the annulus - and adjust AS so I get equal buzz in both channels (I don't expect to be able to track the highest-dB AS tracks!

Or, rather, I don't want to wind up the VTF to the level required to remove all buzzing in the highest-dB track).

But, as you say - this is the starting position, and then get the final setting by ear.

People who say that AS should be zero (with 9" arms) ... have cloth ears, IMO.

Regards,

Andy

neobop · « **Reply #46 on:** 30 Mar 2013, 01:03 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 28 Mar 2013, 02:20 pm

So neo, your saying that setting AS could actually be fun (with the right Rx).......

Maybe the right answer is what ever sounds good to your own ears. However, I'm not going to reset my anti-skate thru various parts of the record and keep a log book. That sound like a worse O/C disorder then mine.....

Wayner,
"Maybe the right answer is what ever sounds good to your own ears."
Seems to me that's the object of all this. Sometimes the more you obsess, the harder it becomes. If there is no absolute perfect setting, how can you achieve perfection?

Once you understand what's going on, that the outer groove wall is the right ch, and the inner is the left, and you're not mistracking, instead of driving yourself crazy, relax, smoke a joint or have a beer or whatever and try to enjoy yourself. Most people have AS on the fly and it's easy enough to tweak, but even if you have a bucket of shot or have to move a weight on a little rod you can make a fine adjustment when the record side is over. The only danger is, if you get a little too high and break something.

With adjustments like this, Zen always works for me. Like the Zen archer who makes bulls eyes by looking away from the target, let the music take you where it will. It's when you let go and stop thinking about adjustments, that the final tweak becomes obvious.

The Zen master said:
Yes Grasshopper, when you're munching on grass and your antenna are up, you hear without thinking about it.
So I mindlessly munch I on grass. It gave me indigestion so I switched to catnip.
neo

steve in jersey · « **Reply #47 on:** 30 Mar 2013, 02:05 pm »

Anti-skating huh ?

When I was a "Vinyl Guy" I always thought the best setting for that was the lowest you thought would "work"& then set to half of that!

(The truth is , I used to take the whole table into "Chestnut Hill Audio" in Philadelphia,PA. & let "Jack" (who was a craftsman at this) intall the cartridge & give me VTA choices through listening. Jack is now at HiFi House in Jenkingtown, PA. "CHA"is long gone)

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #48 on:** 30 Mar 2013, 05:58 pm »

Quote from: andyr on 30 Mar 2013, 11:09 am

Another post of yours which convinces me you are in the know!

Andy

Man, have I got you fooled! I'm just a schmuck trying to learn this stuff just like the next guy.

Your method sounds reasonable. What test disc do you use?

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #49 on:** 30 Mar 2013, 07:18 pm »

Quote from: Devil Doc on 28 Mar 2013, 04:39 pm

Maybe I'm not OCD enough to be an audiophile, but I am enjoying the debate. My cartridge manufacturer states that anti-skate should be approx 1/2 VTF, which is around .9 . My TT manufacturer states time is better spent listening to music than fooling with AS. It's working for me.

Doc

This is a great compromise that I often use when I'm using a spare table and just need a quick and dirty solution. Anything between 1/3 and 1/2 of the tracking force will get you in the ballpark.

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #50 on:** 30 Mar 2013, 07:30 pm »

Quote from: THROWBACK on 28 Mar 2013, 01:52 pm

I agree with everyone:
1. Skating force changes across the disc
2. Any method is a compromise

Frank Schroder, German tonearm maker, recommends the following (if I remember correctly): using a blank disc, set the A/S force such that the stylus tracks very slowly toward the center of the record. How slow is slow? Slow!

I can try that and will shortly.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #51 on:** 31 Mar 2013, 03:56 am »

Like scottdazzle....I use no anti-skate on my VPI Classic.

At least with the Denon DL-160vdH on it....I heard no difference with and without. If anything, it sounded more correct/natural than with any anti-skate.

The Denon has an extremely fine stylus shape which probably mitigates the effect of anti-skate.

Azimuth, however, is hyper critical to get right with this type of tip.

audio.bill · « **Reply #52 on:** 31 Mar 2013, 11:23 am »

The VPI tonearms have a certain amount of anti-skate force even without using the optional anti-skate mechanism which Harry currently includes but recommends against using. The inherent a/s force in these arms is provided by tension in the wire that comes out of the top of the bearing housing and loops to the connection box. The amount of twist in this wire varies its stiffness and will determine the resulting a/s force. This is all explained in the VPI manual.

JBrahms · « **Reply #53 on:** 31 Mar 2013, 03:26 pm »

Quote from: audio.bill on 31 Mar 2013, 11:23 am

The VPI tonearms have a certain amount of anti-skate force even without using the optional anti-skate mechanism which Harry currently includes but recommends against using. The inherent a/s force in these arms is provided by tension in the wire that comes out of the top of the bearing housing and loops to the connection box. The amount of twist in this wire varies its stiffness and will determine the resulting a/s force. This is all explained in the VPI manual.

Not one of Harry's better moments.

cheap-Jack · « **Reply #54 on:** 31 Mar 2013, 09:39 pm »

Hi.

Quote from: THROWBACK on 28 Mar 2013, 01:52 pm

Frank Schroder, German tonearm maker, recommends the following (if I remember correctly): using a blank disc, set the A/S force such that the stylus tracks very slowly toward the center of the record. How slow is slow? Slow!

Did Frank Schroder mention what blank disc was it? Glass or what material?

I tried glass blank disc - too hard, next to zero tracking friction - no good.
Then I made one vinyl blank disc - the result is pretty promising once the right AS force is set.

c-J

BobM · « **Reply #55 on:** 1 Apr 2013, 01:08 pm »

Peter Ledermann from Soundsmith was at VPI 2 weekends ago giving a seminar, of sorts. His take on anti-skate (his words, not mine, and also spoken in the presence of VPI) was that anyone who says anti-skate isn't necessary doesn't know what they are talking about. That being said, it is also near impossible to set it correctly across the entire side of a record, because it keeps changing. But without it you will get uneven pressure on one side of the stylus tip, wearing both the stylus and the record grooves.

His method was to use the "blank" record trick. The arm should move ever so slightly in toward the center. That is a reasonable approximate setting per Peter.

orthobiz · « **Reply #56 on:** 1 Apr 2013, 01:55 pm »

Quote from: BobM on 1 Apr 2013, 01:08 pm

Paul Lederman from Soundsmith

Don't know the Soundsmith staff, but did you mean Peter Lederman?

Paul

neobop · « **Reply #57 on:** 1 Apr 2013, 04:04 pm »

I think Peter (Soundsmith) spells his last name Ledermann. He's very knowledgeable about setting parameters for phono carts. The problem is, people look for the perfect method for setting something that's an average or compromise. Slow is a relative term, slower than what?

Calibrations on AS dials vary in accuracy, and the % of VTF a setting is supposed to correspond to. What to do, what to do??

I'd like to suggest a little common sense. Use whatever method you like, even a slightly lower (than VTF) setting on your AS dial. Then adjust further, fine tune, as needed.

This might seem inexact compaired to setting alignment. I guess it is to some extent, but is one alignment wrong and another right? Any two nulls make a "good" alignment, only you might perfer one over another.
neo

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #58 on:** 1 Apr 2013, 04:42 pm »

You must also make sure that your platter (not just the plinth) is absolutely level. Otherwise your AS setting will be completely inaccurate (as opposed to 'partially inaccurate').

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #59 on:** 1 Apr 2013, 06:49 pm »

I played a blank vinyl platter last night. When the AS is too high, that stylus moves backward, too little and it moves rather quickly forward. So, I adjusted AS so the stylus doesn't move. That how I'm supposed to do it? Oh, I just read above it should be moving very slightly toward the center. Is there a consensus about that being optimum? I tried this with the stylus in the middle of the disc. But, rather, should I be doing this in thirds? Thanks.