[kinku]

I have to admit that I have never heard a FR speaker in my life.I have only a very vague idea about FR speakers.I need to listen to one which should be the ideal way of experiencing anything in audioworld. Unfortunately I do not have that luxury since I live in a small city. I am not starting a believer war here, between 2 ways/ 3way speakers and full rangers.Understanding unless you spend the price of a new Mercedes it is unrealistic to think about a speaker, that fit for all types of music. I listen to vocal ,violin and string instruments more than anything. I am trying to see if a fullrange speaker can accurately reproduce human voice ( so far no luck with 2/3 ways).I use a SB touch as source and Cayin Integrated A70-T as amp.
I would certainly appreciate if you can point me towards some links for general reading.But I am also trying to get is opinions about different Full range models to do my own research and audition.Hope to hear from y'all.

[milford3]

Axiom M80v3's.  The Axioms beat a pair 25k PMC's.  One of the best speaker deals on this planet.  James Tanner uses the Axiom drivers on his new line of speakers.

[kinku]

Milford no offense,the system in  picture has many drivers, so not sure you answered my question for a full range speaker. I am not looking for multiple drivers with cross over but a single full range speaker driver in the system. If the speaker in your picture is not one of those, can you please delete the post.

[JCS]

Unfortunately, commercially made single full range drivers are kinda scarce.  As a fan of DIY speaker building, I have drunk the SFRD KoolAid and built 9 pairs now.  They do have their limitations, but they also do things that challenge all but the most expensive multiways.  Here are a couple links:
http://www.quarter-wave.com/
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/
http://www.frugal-horn.com/metronome.html
http://www.wodendesign.com/
http://brinesacoustics.com/

If you want to try a taste of SFRD w/o spending an arm and a leg, I just finished building a pair of Frugal Horn Mk3 inspired foam core speakers using the Vifa TC9FD (less than $12 each).  For about $35 you can at least get an idea of why some of us have gone back to a simpler way of doing things.  They can't play loud; bass extends into the 40's, but w/o great power or clarity (how much can you expect of a 3.5" driver at that price?); within their limitations, they do sound sweet.  result is at post #52: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/227460-fh3-inspired-foam-core-mini-build-6.html

Cheers,  Jim

[kinku]

Jim thank you. I will look through those links.I know it is difficult but in general what full range speakers are expected to do good and what should I not expect from them. There might be exceptions to those generalizations by using better designed cabinets and better drivers but something in general...

[studiotech]

Fans of single, full-range drivers will talk up and down about the lack or crossover and how "coherent" the sound is because of this.  No crossover points to muck up the purity of the sound.  As far as I can see, this would appear to be the only "benefit".  I'm not sure I've ever heard what they are talking about.  Any full-range based system I've ever heard has driven me out of the room or left me highly unimpressed.  I know they have their cult-like following, but it seems to mostly be middle aged + guys with a rolled off hearing.   The benefits of a multi-way approach done well far outweigh the possible negatives.

Negatives are many:

very narrow treble dispersion especially as cone size increases which need to increase for decent bass response, kind of a catch 22
generally higher distortion than good multi-way systems
lack of any real amount of bass and/or if there is much bass, not any dynamic headroom left over.
many of the drivers used in DIY systems have a peaking or rising response in the high end.  Do you introduce components to filter that out or leave it and NOT point the thing at your listening position?

Greg

[JCS]

kinku,

The main limitations of SFRD are:
--limited SPL (I rarely crank it up past 80 dB, so that isn't an issue for me)
--limited bass extension & power (I use a sub for the low end when I want to go there)
--compromised high freq (those who feel limited here add a super tweeter crossed in about 12 KHz)

In a number of my builds, I have used baffle step correction (BSC), something that is usually dealt with in a XO.  Driver selection is a critical issue.  Some people complain of SFRD 'shout', which I believe is related to a peak around 6 KHz and due to break-up modes.  Larger drivers with whizzer cones seem more prone to this than smaller, whizzerless drivers.

There are many variations on the SFRD theme, such as adding a super tweeter (XO very high) or woofer (see FAST) (XO in the range of 100 to 300 Hz).  While not a true SFRD, these variations move the XO outside the critical hearing band, helping to make the deficiencies of the XO less obvious.

Cheers,  Jim
 

[kinku]

Thanks Jim and Greg. Do you think the sound of Nat Cole King can be reproduced more accurately in a SFR system than over a crossed over 2/3 driver speaker?Or is it possible for 2/3 way driver system achieve same level of reproduction as from a SFR(minus the distortion  and poor reproduction of bass and high frequencies).
Greg can you please mention what all type of music you listen to ?

[catastrofe]

I visited Decware a couple of weeks ago and listened to Steve's full range single driver speaker, the "DNA".  It sounded fantastic, and played plenty loud in his large, open space using 60W per channel.

[kinku]

How much it cost to build/buy?
What about other Omega ,Hoyt-Bedford.Any one auditioned them before?

[catastrofe]

Here's a link to the Decware DNA.  I believe they sell for ~$2,500 per pair if you have them built by Steve's authorized builder.

http://www.decware.com/newsite/HORN.html

[kinku]

I am still waiting on a detailed reply about how SFR different from 2 way/3way speakers!!!

[studiotech]

I'm all over the map with music.  I listen to quite a bit of non-audiophile approved stuff with lots of studio tricks and synths, so I need capable speakers with low-end punch and dynamic capability.  No small, full-range driver will ever cut the mustard for me.  The same goes for large orchestral works or soundtracks. 

Typical jazz trio and chick singer audiophile recordings can do OK on full-range systems, but it also depends on your idea of loud.  One persons "loud" is another persons "just getting warmed up"

Greg

[dB Cooper]

As is so often the case with audio- and nowhere more than with speakers- the only answer is to listen.

I like the concept of full range single driver speakers, but my (admittedly limited) listening experiences have largely paralleled those of studiotech, who I believe did address your question about the relative merits of single driver vs multi-way systems. Apart from the question of dispersion, cone breakup at the higher end of the range is part of the cost of admission with single driver systems, and this has been known from the earliest days of cone drivers. It was part of the reason multiway designs were developed in the first place. I think this may be the reason the single driver speakers I have heard (so far) have sounded very "colored" to me.   Put differently, the best multiway systems I have heard easily surpass the best fullrange-driver systems I have heard... to my ears. fullrangeman here on AC is well known to have a totally different opinion; that's fine. All speaker systems are a giant bag of tradeoffs (I'll spare everyone the laundry list, everyone knows them.) The question is, which of those tradeoffs are least objectionable (read:audible) to you?

Go to an audio show toting familiar source material. Exhibitors will vary in their willingness to demo using your music. Concentrate your efforts on the rooms that are willing to let you demo at least a little of your own material. RUN don't walk from rooms where the exhibitor lectures you on what you "should" be hearing (this was happening in one FR-driver room at CAF last summer); the really good systems don't need carney barkers; they let their speakers do the "speaking". Omega Speakers have a good rep and are known for being willing to play anything you want at their facility. Many ACers will open their doors for this purpose (although some will be more receptive if you show up with a few beers...)

[kinku]

I wish someone was around me for a listening comparison. I came to this circle from one observation. Regardless what theory say the sound from my car speakers which are JBL sound more  realistic than many hifi systems I heard.I would say a balanced sound with some loudness with human voices. But is it not the way normally it should sound.I am not in particular about dissecting my listening experience into "what all sounds I could here well" .I rather would like to hear without any artificiality. Recessed mids ,over emphasised high or low are so far what I heard from Hi fi not the real human experience. Just unsure what can bring that reality into audio?

[rollo]

  Well first off single driver speakers use no crossover. Advantage. FR speakers cover more of the frequency range. Single drivers are truer to the source. They have a linear reproduction. FR speakers when done right meaning crossover can come close but no cigar.
   Image size though IMO is where the SDS fails in direct comparison. Scale is important in recreating the live event.


charles

[JLM]

I've been a singe driver fan for years because of their inherent advantages (active design by default, coherent, perfect imaging source, no phase/voicing mix ups due to crossover/multiple drivers).  And yes, I'm a mellow old fart audio-nut.  There are good and bad examples of single and multiple driver speaker designs.  Better drivers are the key for any speaker, especially single driver designs.  There is no perfect loudspeaker.  Allow me to comparatively generalize:

They can't be beat for little girl with a guitar (vocals, simple arrangements, sane listening levels).  Yes highs will "beam" and lows are a challenge (very few can handle foundational bass).  And they fall apart with large ensembles and/or high sound pressure levels.  Most are highly efficient (which often adds colorizations).  Unless your stuck with tubes/SET's, watts come cheap and easy nowadays, so no advantage there.  Single driver fans probably make as much sense as lovers of any other odd ball hobby (like audio in general).  As you compare try to compare apples to apples (size, cost, frequency range, whatever your priorities are) of single versus multiple driver designs.  Note that single driver designs are the anti-thesis of big box hi-fi where boomy/thumpy bass and zingy/exaggerated highs try to initially impress. 

Where are you located?  Someone "nearby" may be willing to let you listen in their home.  I've had people drive up to 100 miles to hear my Brines (now called T18-F200) that use expensive 8 inch drivers (that I've had modded) and Digital Equalization in place of the original simple Baffle Step circuits.  Try asking at the Omega circle about their speakers (I do like Louis, very nice guy with killer cabinet building skills). 

I really like dB's auditioning advice.  The other advice is pretty accurate.

[studiotech]

I Allow me to comparatively generalize:

They can't be beat for little girl with a guitar (vocals, simple arrangements, sane listening levels). 

This is perfect.  May I use it?

Can you explain what you mean by coherence?  If is the idea that you cannot tell that sounds are coming from separate driver elements, most GOOD multi-way speakers can do that trick just fine.

Greg

[kinku]

They can't be beat for little girl with a guitar (vocals, simple arrangements, sane listening levels). 

Thank you JLM. I am sorry but,do not think I understood that little girl sentence completely.
I will never ever use a system more than 60 watts (that too only if my speakers rated less than 85 dB/W ) in my listening room. I am currently using a Monitor audio silver RS6 which is suppose to reproduce Mids faithfully.I think it does but I am not sure if a Hifi with cross over is the best for human voice reproduction?
I may use a subwoofer if it needed and not a big fan of hearing high frequencies but need something that will faithfully reproduce human voice frequency which is 300HZ to 3000Hz.That is why I am in this new search .SDFR speakers may be the answer for my quest?
I live in Charleston WV.YesI am ready to drive to listen something different. Do not know which direction. Hopefully someone will offer me an audition.....

[studiotech]

  Well first off single driver speakers use no crossover. Advantage.

Not necessarily.  In most cases, they really could use some filtering...

 

FR speakers cover more of the frequency range. Single drivers are truer to the source. They have a linear reproduction.
charles

Truer to the source?  Which source?  I know I'm spliting hairs here, but if the source is a full orchestra, no way.  If the source is the Rolling Stones, no way.  If the source is a grand piano playing full FFF, no way.

I've really tried to like and give full-range(augmented up really high and low) a chance, but they usually sound colored, not more accurate to my ears.  I do not want one-trick pony speakers.  A good speaker ought to be able to handle a wide range of material with easy.  As the car guys would say, there's no replacement for displacement.

What do you mean by linear reproduction?   I think in most definitions, the full-range will lose again to a good multi-way.

Greg