[scorpion]

OK Greg,

I think I am ready to start comparisons. I have been away long for various reasons, but now I hope I can do some contributions of certain significance.
Lets begin with the Neo10. I introduced this instead of the 18Sounds 6ND430 to companion the AE IB15 and the Neo3W in an all OB dipole as this photo shows:



As usual it looks much worse than it sounds. Neo10 is 90 cm up in the middle on a 20 cm wide baffle with the Neo3W on top of 105 cm height.

Also pictured is my new Behringer ECM800 mic which has together with ARTA given me the following response in the sweetspot position of my room, equidistant triangle of 2 m:



Not calibrated mic but otherwise seemingly OK. This is for the right hand speaker with Periodic Pink Noise FR1 ARTA measurement nothing applied.

But of course corrections for the responses. In the bass the main correction is LP shelving  + 8 dB at 80 Hz 12 dB/oct shelving. For the bass also some dips is corrected (bass is as usual hard to judge in a measurement as this) but measurement is bettered by narrow BP filters at 56 hZ + 4 dB and 121 Hz + 8 dB.
Neo10 is corrected to meet up with the 303 Hz Butterworth 48 dB crossover amounting to a LP shelving at 457 Hz + 8 dB with a 12 dB/oct slope. These are the only corrections applied. Crossover between Neo10 and Neo3W is also BW 48 dB at 2.3 kHz.

I decided I needed bigger headroom than my tiny Trend amps had so I built some 150 w 4 ohm class D TDA8950 amplifier. I should probably have decided for more power earlier.
This amp really lets the Neo10 loose. I am frankly extremly impressed over the sound this combo produce. I also think now that the 18Sound 6ND430 underachieved with the small 2024 T-amp.

/Erling

[scorpion]

Perhaps I should explain, all corrections are applied in a Behringer DCX2496 which I also feed by an upsampling SRC2496 unit.

/Erling

[studiotech]

Glad to see you back!

You'll have to swap the 6ND430 back into the system with the bigger amp too just to be fair.  This was my first choice for a dynamic cone driver in my system until the Neo10 showed up.

I assume once you get comfortable with the sound of the Neo10, you will swap to the ER stat panel?

Greg

[steve f]

ER stat panel? What's that?

[studiotech]

ER stat panel? What's that?

See here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=109771.0

Greg

[ttan98]

Scorpion/Erling,

welcome back, looks like you are designing a new set of OB based on Neo 10 mid section. You briefing mention how you apply low shelving, apply bump to dip to your woofer. I would like to know more details.

My system is based on this image, http://www.flickr.com/photos/54808408@N04/?saved=1
the top section the drivers are all passively xovered, then this section is x-overed to the bottom Uframe(twin woofers) via the Behringer DCX 2496. I have Soundeasy and mic as measuring instrumentations.

I like to understand how you correctly measured the dips and bumps on your woofer section so that you can correctly interface to your mid woofer. If you can please explain:

1. how you measure the woofer for dips and bumps without going out-doors?
2. How to time align between the midwoofer and woofer sections?
3. How do you decide the x-over frequency?
4. How to decide the correct phasing between the mid woofer and woofer?, i.e. may have to reverse the mid-woofer or woofer to obtain correct phasing(i.e. incorrect phasing I will get a dip)

I would appreciate if explain the above for me. Thanks.

[steve f]

Studiotech,

Thanks, that's a great thread. The ESL advantage is that a tweeter should be unnecessary. The B-G Neo 10 and Neo 3 should have higher volume capacity. Both should have phenomenal dynamics and transient speed. I hope a comparison is made. Both should be winners.

Steve

[scorpion]

Greg,

Yes I'll work with the ER panel next. And regarding the 6ND430 you are absolutly right. The difference between introducing the Neo10 instead of the 6ND430, I did test, is not so overwhelming as when I switched from
Alpha15 to AE IB15. The sound of Neo10 is very 'live'-like, direct, involving and neutral, perhaps a bit to forward for some. But for instance listining to 'Jazz at the Pawnshop' does draw tears in the eyes, so
good is it.

ttan98, nice to hear from you again !

As I listen indoors I measure indoors, I don't, in this case try to simulate anechoic response. My room measures favorably I have learned. In this case, and now when I have a microphone I trust a bit more than
my homemade one, I see no reason not to try correcting what probably would be floordip effects. The Periodic Pink Noise is supposed to be the most robust measuring method, as stated by ARTA,

I have not really aligned between woofer and mid phasewise. The mid/tweeter baffle is placed behind th bass baffle, which is the same as for the Blindstone. So some centimeters are missing but the crossover frequency of 303 Hz is still over one meter wavelength. But mid and tweeter is physically aligned.

X-over was determined mostly by measurement, corrections beeing applied, and other peoples experience.

Phasing is in fact fairly easy. You hear when something is wrong. I still use the Trends 2024 amp for the Neo3W and with this unit you have to switch leads to get correct phase.

/Erling

[sfdoddsy]

When I tried the Neo3 naked like that I found it needed a slight boost in the lower frequencies to meet the Neo10. Did you find this too?

[scorpion]

No, just ruler straight with level match.

/Erling

[scorpion]

I was to a demo with Opus3 and DSD recordings. They played with Meitner MA-1, Electrocompaniet, Totem Wind and Mangnepan 1.7. These Neo10s really grow. 

/Erling

[studiotech]

I was to a demo with Opus3 and DSD recordings. They played with Meitner MA-1, Electrocompaniet, Totem Wind and Mangnepan 1.7. These Neo10s really grow. 

/Erling

I take that to mean you are happy with the Neo10 in comparison to what you heard at the demo?

Greg

[scorpion]

Sound at the demo was infact very good. I do liked the Magnepans, definitively the best to date.
But the Neo10s will certainly compete with the very best, I am convinced. And my AE IB15, Neo10, Neo3W combo as I hear it at home now after some time
of longer regular playing is integrating very well and sound better than I thought it would. And good also if I compare to what I heard at the demo.

/Erling

[Toaster]

So, when are you swapping in the electrostatics Scorpy? Enquiring minds need to know!

[rick57]

Plus one

I'm posting to register interest in the comparison Neo v Mini ESL . . . 
and as I can't see here at audio circle how to subscribe to a thread  . . 

[studiotech]

Plus one

I'm posting to register interest in the comparison Neo v Mini ESL . . . 
and as I can't see here at audio circle how to subscribe to a thread  . . 

Rick, hit the "notify" button at the top of the page.

Greg

[steve f]

Looking for an update. Scorpion, do you have further comments of your project?

Steve

[scorpion]

I am sorry. I know that some perhaps are eagerly waiting for me to continue.
For the last three months because of family business I have been more away than home so much work has not been done.
I see no opening for the next coming weeks either until the begginning of June when things as planned will calm down.

/Erling

[PMAT]

Its July. Lets get going here. 

[markk]

Hi Erling,

This looks like a very interesting project.

It looks like you have chosen drivers that are completely open on the back as well as the front.

Most of the speakers I see on this post have a sealed tweeter and no high frequency sound emanating from the back.

How do the high frequencies sound to you when using drivers that are all open on both sides?

Do you like this presentation more or less?

Have you measured the distance from each driver to your listening position and have them all the same distance or do you place the drivers all at different distances?

Thanks for your feedback,

Mark K