Soundstage depth and image. For real or all in your head?

dB Cooper · « **Reply #20 on:** 19 Feb 2013, 09:59 pm »

dalethorn, my point is that when your system is telling you that the vocalist is just slightly right of center and three feet back from the speakers, and there is no sound source there, while the sound is real, the sonic "image" definitively is not; it is a construct produced in your brain by the characteristics you mention, in much the same way that your brain tells you that a series of still images displayed in rapid enough succession appear to be moving even though we know they are not.

dB Cooper · « **Reply #21 on:** 19 Feb 2013, 10:00 pm »

Quote from: FULLRANGEMAN on 19 Feb 2013, 04:45 pm

A friend listen the HD800 in a audio show powered by a new integrated TEAC amp(for regular loudspaekers) and said the sound stage is at least 4 metres wide!!
Which seems a unreliable say.

Yes; how would you measure that...

neobop · « **Reply #22 on:** 20 Feb 2013, 01:33 pm »

Quote from: dB Cooper on 19 Feb 2013, 09:59 pm

dalethorn, my point is that when your system is telling you that the vocalist is just slightly right of center and three feet back from the speakers, and there is no sound source there, while the sound is real, the sonic "image" definitively is not; it is a construct produced in your brain by the characteristics you mention, in much the same way that your brain tells you that a series of still images displayed in rapid enough succession appear to be moving even though we know they are not.

The fault is equating stereo image with "real", or not. A stereo recording is made in such a way that the recreation of space is reproduced by a set of stereo speakers, just as a binaural recording adapts that aspect to work with ear speakers. The difference is microphone placement. None of it is real, you're listening to a reproduction.

Your brain receives an inverted image from your eyes, but the world isn't upside down. Thank God for brains.
neo

thunderbrick · « **Reply #23 on:** 20 Feb 2013, 02:10 pm »

Quote from: neobop on 20 Feb 2013, 01:33 pm

Thank God for brains.
neo

Too bad not everyone uses theirs..............

And to answer the OP, if it's all in our heads, isn't that the whole point?

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #24 on:** 20 Feb 2013, 03:41 pm »

Quote from: thunderbrick on 20 Feb 2013, 02:10 pm

to answer the OP, if it's all in our heads, isn't that the whole point?

No. I was just wondering if I was missing out on something that is talked about in the headphone forums. I wondered if some headphone users could actually hear music laid out in front of them the same way they might be able to hear the same music coming from a pair of speakers in a room. Now I realize that they don't, or can't, and that their description of soundstage is relative to what is possible within the confined headphone experience.

dB Cooper · « **Reply #25 on:** 20 Feb 2013, 04:25 pm »

To reiterate, crossfeed helps with the effect you describe. Search 'headphone crossfeed' and see what you find.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #26 on:** 20 Feb 2013, 05:01 pm »

Thanks, I will study it further. A quick google shows plenty of information on the subject. It looks like it could be fun to build my own.

dB Cooper · « **Reply #27 on:** 20 Feb 2013, 05:10 pm »

These days my pooter is my main source; there are a variety of software solutions for both Windoze and Mac and probably Linux too.

neobop · « **Reply #28 on:** 20 Feb 2013, 05:24 pm »

Quote from: dalethorn on 20 Feb 2013, 02:41 pm

But this misses the point. If a videotape reproduction is not real (it isn't), yet is a good enough representation of reality to convict someone of a capital crime (it is), then a stereo image can have just as much reality as the video image. And if shown in court to a jury, with stereo audio, such a tape reproduction could be judged quite real by experts, for video and audio aspects. So instead of simply saying it's not real, how about this test case in court? Would a panel of experts declare all such recorded evidence not real and then invalid?

I was addressing the philosophical point of real or no-real. The sound coming out of the speakers is real, yet the image is no-real? This is a separate issue than the accuracy or authenticity of a recording, which could be phony or manipulated.

I think you were right in your initial response. I just took it a step further implying the image is as real as the sound itself, being an aspect of that sound. I happen to think that both the original sound was real, and the recording as a copy, is also. In a logical argument, you can always refute the premise to make an argument. If you accept the premise, you can take the statement to its conclusion and show why it's wrong.
neo

toocool4 · « **Reply #29 on:** 20 Feb 2013, 07:37 pm »

Quote from: Quiet Earth on 1 Feb 2013, 10:17 pm

Am I doing something wrong? Perhaps I have the wrong type of headphone for a 3rd dimension

Yes you do have the wrong headphones for you.

I have listened to Grado headphones in the past they all have the same sound signature. Stuck in your head sound not for me, I have never seen the attraction with Grado headphones but guess some people like that.

If you want to hear some good examples of 3 dimensionality try Beyerdynamic T1, Sennheiser HD800, Stax SR-009 etc.

I am not saying you have to spend T1, HD800 or Stax money to get what you want but these headphones will show you what is possible.

ajzepp · « **Reply #30 on:** 20 Feb 2013, 10:03 pm »

If my Grados produced a sound that was "stuck in my head" I probably wouldn't like them either

neobop · « **Reply #31 on:** 20 Feb 2013, 10:42 pm »

Quote from: dalethorn on 20 Feb 2013, 06:49 pm

So all that is good, but when someone says it's not real and all in one's head, I don't think that's valid even as philosophy. Recordings that are done with the intent of capturing a real performance of musicians arrayed much as you would hear them live in person - there's going to be a real correlation between what you hear in the music tracks and what took place at the time of the recording. If the recording is done more artificially, without a musician or group in a natural space you would experience live, then I guess all bets are off. But there, I think the philosophy is in the recording, not the playback.

Both the recording and the image produced are unreal in the sense that it is not the actual event. They are a facsimile of the real event. It doesn't follow to say, the sound of the recording is real but the image is unreal, it's in your head. I was trying to illustrate that the image is as real or unreal as the recording. The philosophy is in the question of reality. Some philosophers might argue that it's all in your head and that's all we can know. Does the tree that falls in a forest make a sound if nobody hears it? I think yes, but I can't prove it.
neo

Crimson · « **Reply #32 on:** 21 Feb 2013, 04:13 am »

Quote from: neobop on 20 Feb 2013, 10:42 pm

it's in your head..............
it's all in your head

I agree.

But, in the end, what really matters?

eclein · « **Reply #33 on:** 21 Feb 2013, 03:55 pm »

I love crossfeed or similar as that spreads stuff around a bit-I guess widens is the right word.
My Android tablet has a few apps on it that have crossfeed and its neat....I use it.

randytsuch · « **Reply #34 on:** 21 Feb 2013, 04:40 pm »

Quote from: eclein on 21 Feb 2013, 03:55 pm

I love crossfeed or similar as that spreads stuff around a bit-I guess widens is the right word.
My Android tablet has a few apps on it that have crossfeed and its neat....I use it.

Do you notice any SQ decrease with crossfeed?

I think I'll look for a squeeze server plug in for crossfeed, and see if I like it.

Randy

eclein · « **Reply #35 on:** 21 Feb 2013, 08:57 pm »

I take the output of the tablet into a Fiio E07 then to whatever phones I choose. The app on the Android tablet that plays back the file is "Neutron Music Player", and the ASUS tablet tf300 supposedly has a tweaked headphone output so by the time I hear it I'm sure the SQ has changed somewhere along the line but it works. I'm playing back MP3's to start with so I'm not expecting anything super special but it sounds good enough to me.

MOG on my tablet is currently what I listen to most......for my ears the combo of the three (tab + E07 + Amperiors) is fantastic. There is something about the sound that is so musical I can't stop tapping my toes!!! LOL!!

milford3 · « **Reply #36 on:** 21 Feb 2013, 09:20 pm »

Still waiting on my Zenhead. Steve emailed that it's "on the bench." Can't wait.

dB Cooper · « **Reply #37 on:** 21 Feb 2013, 11:08 pm »

Quote from: randytsuch on 21 Feb 2013, 04:40 pm

Do you notice any SQ decrease with crossfeed?
Randy

I don't notice any loss in SQ (it actually seems to improve instrumental separation on some recordings) but with some recordings the highs roll just a bit.
If you use VLC it has a 'headphone virtualization' setting buried in Filters. Not the best but it will give you some idea. When I was on Windows I had some audio player app that had 'Dolby Headphone' which worked well. If you have a Mac there is also MPlayer OSX Extended (free) which has 'a 'Virtual speakers for headphones' option in its Audio preferences. This one works well.

dB Cooper · « **Reply #38 on:** 21 Feb 2013, 11:10 pm »

Quote from: eclein on 21 Feb 2013, 03:55 pm

I love crossfeed or similar as that spreads stuff around a bit-I guess widens is the right word.
My Android tablet has a few apps on it that have crossfeed and its neat....I use it.

Wish there was something comparable for iOS (I have looked..)

randytsuch · « **Reply #39 on:** 22 Feb 2013, 01:54 am »

Quote from: dB Cooper on 21 Feb 2013, 11:08 pm

I don't notice any loss in SQ (it actually seems to improve instrumental separation on some recordings) but with some recordings the highs roll just a bit.
If you use VLC it has a 'headphone virtualization' setting buried in Filters. Not the best but it will give you some idea. When I was on Windows I had some audio player app that had 'Dolby Headphone' which worked well. If you have a Mac there is also MPlayer OSX Extended (free) which has 'a 'Virtual speakers for headphones' option in its Audio preferences. This one works well.

I recently started using a Pogoplug running Debian Linux running Logitech Music Server (SqueezeServer), and I couldn't find any plug ins for crossfeed.

I could run Squeezeserver out of a windows machine instead, but its more convenient with the pogoplug because it only uses something like 5 watts, so I can just leave it on 24/7. With the windows machine, I need to turn it on and off. I could also run it out of a macbook, but it sounds like windows would be best for crossfeed.

Randy