[Quiet Earth]

Hi everyone. I've been learning a lot about headphones and amplifiers over the past few weeks. I see a lot of talk about how well or how poorly certain headphones and amplifiers image. There's a lot of chatter on headphone forums about the difference in soundstage depth between different equipment. However, when I listen to my old Grado RS-2s I don't hear any stage event or front to back dimension at all. Mostly what I hear is in the middle of my head or between my ears. I can hear direct left and right differences of course, and occasionally it sounds like the event is originating from right behind me, but never is there a "stage" laid out in front of me the way a pair of speakers can present it.

Am I doing something wrong? Perhaps I have the wrong type of headphone for a 3rd dimension, or maybe I don't know what to listen for yet as I am a headphone novice. If there is a 3rd dimension hiding inside of my head, what does it take to reveal it?  Any tips or advice is appreciated.

Thanks for reading.

[SteveFord]

The right headphone amp can bring out the best in them.
The speaker position in the headphones adds a great deal to the presentation, as well.
I think that's what the big appeal is with the top of the line Beyerdynamics headphone - the speaker placement.  They're forward and angled backwards towards your ears.
My ancient Stax headphones give a 12th row, looking down on the stage presentation. 
My DT880s put me on the stage as do the Grados.

[hibuckhobby]

I've tried a lot of cans...dynamic, electrostatic and planar...and few
put the sound in front of me like speakers.  The Senn. HD700's and 800's
do get it out there a bit, but most have the sensation of depth in the soundstage
(if they portray it at all) going from "behind my eyes to 'way' behind me".
YMMV,
Hibuck....

[Quiet Earth]

Thanks guys. After a little more study I have learned about the term "head stage" which implies a more realistic expectation amongst those who describe soundstage or imaging possibilities. Ok, that's one thing.

I have also learned that Grados in general have a very forward, midrange-oriented, up front sound compared to the headphones that are reported to image well. Since my Grados don't image well (or at all), that's another reason why I don't hear it.

Still learning . . .

[jimdgoulding]

Quiet, hi.  As I recall your speakers are positioned in your corners.  While that might be good for some things I can assure it isn't for laying out the soundstage that is included in some recordings and depth of field, in particular.  The Grado in my headshell soundstages just fine.   

[ajzepp]

I guess it's just further evidence that we all hear differently, cause I actually find that each of my Grados images quite well. As Steve said, it's more like being on the stage with the musicians instead of out in the audience or elsewhere, but I find that I'm easily able to discern instruments and vocals in space and in their approximate location. 

[adydula]

Hello Quiet,

I have spent the last 2-3 years playing with headphones....and have gone thru a dozen sets of cans and amps.

Nothing I have heard have come close to the soundstage of my 2 ch setup....

That said the soundstage to me is very different from headphone to headphone....and mostly I have discovered its very much related to
the driver to ear physics, and the various pads, sealing material, and the distance from the driver to the ear etc...

Soundstage is not imaging, but more of how open and how airy the music is, does it sound like you indicate...like in your head etc...

I have Grados and they sound to me like what you have indicated.

The cans I have found that sound the most open are AKG 702 and Q701's...

Even my rather expensive cans LCD2's although are very , very good and musical don't have the soundstage that these do to me.

The one thing I notice with the AKG's is how BIG the driver assembly is and how they fit on my head/ears...seems like their physical arrangement is helping to add to their ability to sound more 3 dimensional.

I had a few folks over last week to audition my Salk Speakers...and all the while I was listening with these guys I was thinking on how much better this experience was compared to the many cans I have are...

All the best
Alex

[Quiet Earth]

I guess it's just further evidence that we all hear differently, cause I actually find that each of my Grados images quite well. As Steve said, it's more like being on the stage with the musicians instead of out in the audience or elsewhere, but I find that I'm easily able to discern instruments and vocals in space and in their approximate location.

I guess we don't hear all that differently, because you have described what I am hearing with my Grados in terms of being on the stage. I am also able to locate, but always standing right in the midst of it.

Soundstage is not imaging, but more of how open and how airy the music is

Thanks for differentiating those two terms for me. I can see now that I interchanged them and used them a little too loosely.

[dB Cooper]

This general thread, it seems, eventually leads to the topic of crossfeed, which, if implemented well, does (IMO) lead to more "natural" stereo from headphones. Less "on a string" between your ears and more realistic.

[milford3]

For me, headphones eliminate the room acoustic equation. 

[jimdgoulding]

Begging your pardon, Quiet, I hadn't realized this topic is about headphones, no excuse.  I what I wrote pertains to a turntable and a (Grado) phono cartridge but I guess you figured that out.  Whoops.

[Quiet Earth]

No problem Jim. I enjoy your company all the same. 

This general thread, it seems, eventually leads to the topic of crossfeed, which, if implemented well, does (IMO) lead to more "natural" stereo from headphones. Less "on a string" between your ears and more realistic.

Yeah, that's something that I need to hear. Thanks for bringing it up. 

[jimdgoulding]

For me, headphones eliminate the room acoustic equation.

From your photos, I gotta ask, are headphones preferable?  And if so, I'd be interested to know how come, please.  Thanks

[neobop]

Nice to see you here. 
At first I found it odd that an IEM would surpass a full size open phone in the imaging dept, but I think Senn has done a lot of research about this.

I started a thread about SoundMagic HP 100, but nobody knew anything.  The 53mm drivers look like they may have been made by Taskar. Any updates?
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=112336.0

http://www.seaben.com/takstar-pro80-ts-series-professional-audio-monitoring-headphones-pro-80_p28471.html

[dB Cooper]

To respond directly to the original question, it's all in your head, as is a stereo 'image' from loudspeakers. There actually is no 'stereo image' or 'soundstage'; it is an illusion, an interpretation by your brain. (ie, there is no sound originating from between/behind/beyond the speakers, but a good recording, played through a good system, in a room with good acoustics, can make it sound like there is- to your brain.) The goal of high fidelity, as I understand it, is to make the illusion so good as to be interpreted by the brain as 'real'.

[hibuckhobby]

+1 with DB.  I was tempted to just respond to the question with "yes".
Hibuck....

[decal]

As db Cooper stated, "it's all in your head".

[FullRangeMan]

A friend listen the HD800 in a audio show powered by a new integrated TEAC amp(for regular loudspaekers) and said the sound stage is at least 4 metres wide!!
Which seems a unreliable say.

[Justin_Time]

Professor Dumbledor to Harry Potter: "...Of course it's all in your head, Harry.  But why shouldn't that be real..."

Soundsatge width and depth are just as real as the headphone sound that come out of the middle of your forehead though there are no speakers there--at least I hope not.

With the right amp and cable, the HD800 is capable of throwing an amazingly large soundstage.  For me it is the combination RWA Corvina/Silver Poison (Toxic cables)/HD800.

Soundstage is the Achille's heal of headphones but in a few more years, I suspect that most high-end headphones will be able to produce realistic sound stage either directly or via digital manipulations.

[neobop]

Ortofon did extensive testing of phase vs amplitude and concluded that phase linearity had a tremendous impact on imaging.