[steve in jersey]

I've used my PSE Studio iV to drive my 2.7QRs , but I have to be honest , I very rarely listen at more than a medium volume. Most of my listening is to Classical (very rarely choral), Jazz & occasionally some well recorded singer/songwriter music. I have no idea how this amp would fare playing "hard driving" rock.

I think you are pretty safe driving Maggies w/ Bryston or Pass Lab (Aleph series) or even one of the Odyssey amps (These were quite often recommended on the "MUG" board over on Audio Asylum).

Through the years I've often wondered how Magnaplanar's earned the reputation of being hard to drive. Early in their history they were often paired with Audio Research amplifiers.

[earwaxxer]

I have had my MMG's for many years, hacked the crossovers and wires etc. They have taken a beating. I can say without reservation that the best sounding amp I have used to date is the Emotiva XPA-2. I think you can generalize that a powerful amp that plays nicely (not bright and nasty) will be a good match for the maggies. I have also used 50wpc t-amps. Also good, but a bit 'top heavy'. IMO, a 'darker' highpower amp is the way to go. Tubes, all the better.

[SteveFord]

I know that the majority of my listening is done at 50 WPC or less (by a lot). 
I'm probably using 100 WPC right now, maybe a bit more on the bass drum kicks.
Whatever model or type of amp you get, buy the best you can afford as these speakers will show up the differences.

[medium jim]

I know that the majority of my listening is done at 50 WPC or less (by a lot). 
I'm probably using 100 WPC right now, maybe a bit more on the bass drum kicks.
Whatever model or type of amp you get, buy the best you can afford as these speakers will show up the differences.

There are no short cuts...whatever you buy, it should have a massive power supply and that does cost money unfortunately. 

Jim

[josh358]

Through the years I've often wondered how Magnaplanar's earned the reputation of being hard to drive. Early in their history they were often paired with Audio Research amplifiers.

They're very well-behaved loads. I suppose that reputation comes from the fact that they're relatively inefficient, and, of course, 4 ohms. So you can't put the typical receiver on them, you need a real amplifier. And if you want them to do everything they can do -- most people never listen that loud -- they need megapower amps. People sometimes listen to them driven by small amps, and underestimate their dynamic capability as a result.

[medium jim]

They're very well-behaved loads. I suppose that reputation comes from the fact that they're relatively inefficient, and, of course, 4 ohms. So you can't put the typical receiver on them, you need a real amplifier. And if you want them to do everything they can do -- most people never listen that loud -- they need megapower amps. People sometimes listen to them driven by small amps, and underestimate their dynamic capability as a result.

One also needs to be cognizant of the fact that Dipole Planars load a room more linearly that conventional box speakers....I think Josh can expand on this better than I would ever be able to

Jim

[Rclark]

if you want them to do everything they can do -- most people never listen that loud -- they need megapower amps. People sometimes listen to them driven by small amps, and underestimate their dynamic capability as a result.

Absolutely true. I have been shocked to read in the past that Maggies are "jazz speakers" and don't really play anything else that well. Not with a powerful amp on them, they enter a whole different performance realm when given the juice they need, and even little MMG's can soak up a LOT of power when you open up the taps.

If any of you have a clip light on your smaller amps or a way to measure your amps with an O-scope, I guarantee you will see a small amp/Maggie combo clipping like crazy at even normal/high listening volumes, especially on big transients. You might not hear any issue, especially if you're used to it, but it's there.

 

[SteveFord]

I'd have to say my ancient I-Cs were jazz speakers. 
They sounded nothing like the later models - they were very laid back and not very dynamic.
Oddly enough, I read a post a year or three back on AA where people were saying that everything since then has been a backwards step.
One of the fellows who was saying the I-C was the pinnacle of perfection had posted a year or two previously that the MMGs ate them for breakfast!
That total flip flop gave me a laugh.  I doubt he recalled his previous statement.
Note: the I-C is really not anything to covet except for it's undeniable vintage vibe.
We now return to our regularly scheduled thread about amps...

[medium jim]

While I agree 100% that this is a matter of listening habits, I'd add one thing to what Magnepan said: Power is one thing that can be done pretty well by the book. I can see why they wouldn't want to go into this on their web site, because so many audiophiles seem to be allergic to measurement, but as I see it God equipped us with SPL meters and it's a simple matter to play some music as loud as you ever do and measure it. After that, sizing an amp is a straightforward mechanical exercise. There are HTML amp sizing tables that make it doubly easy. Just make sure of two things: use a table that is for line source dipoles, and if you're using a Radio Shack meter to measure the peaks at 10 dB to the reading. Also, as a rule of thumb, you can get by with a tube amp of about half the size as a solid state amp.

...

Jim

[Davey]

You can get by, but you'll be living with (at the very least) 3db reduction in achievable SPL's.    (All other things being equal.)

Cheers,

Dave.

[josh358]

The consensus seems to be that it's it's a consequence of soft clipping, which in turn is a consequence of the relatively low NFB in tube amps. Since a bit of soft clipping is inaudible, you get more usable peak headroom. Ssable peak headroom in turn determines how loud an amp will play music with its 10-20 dB peak/average ratio. So you can get by with a smaller amp.

Personally, I prefer sizing the amp so it never gets into its nonlinear region in the first place. But I'd have to admit that that has more to do with engineering aesthetics than with sound. Even hard clipping is inaudible in small doses.

[SteveFord]

You get those Tympanis going in that room and the only thing you're going to be hearing is the ringing in your ears.

[medium jim]

From my 1st hand experience, I can tell you that I prefer my Marantz 9's which many would consider a moderate power amp over high power SS amps that I have had on my Maggie's.  This includes Bryston, Parasound and a BGW....all are over 300 wpc in 4ohms, the BGW is the best of the 3 and it is near 500 watts in 4 ohm.   I don't have any loss of dynamics, detail, clarity, coherence and have a deeper and wider soundstage with tubes.  To put another way, there is no problem fleshing out everything with the Marantz's on the Maggie's.

One opined that on smaller (I guess he means low powered) amps that they will often clip, but you are not aware of it, really? I think if an amp was clipping, tube or SS, it would be audible, especially with SS.   Tubes will start to compress the highs and it is audible, you will also have panel slap if your amp can't cut it. 

I will gladly give up the 3db that I don't need 99% of the time in favor of better SQ any day of the week.  During the dog days of summer I use my BGW and I listen to it at the same spl's as I do with my Marantz's, but lose the sweetness in the mids/highs and the less 3 dimensional soundstage....I can't wait for the oppressive heat to subside to go back to the tubes.   

All of that said, it is a personal choice, but I wholeheartedly prescribe to what Magnepan says about how much power is needed and take those who say that you need a zillion watts, also what Magnepan says

If someone says they want to go with mega wattage, go for it...if someone says they want to go with moderate powered tube amps, go for it as long as it has a beefy power supply...

Jim

P.S. I guess the ever ending debate will never be resolved and personal bias will always rear its ugly head. 

[Davey]

Josh,

I understand, but it's confusing for folks when you mention an implied equivalence between SS amplifiers and tube amplifiers of half the power.  It's much more complicated than that. 

Soft-clipping is distortion.....regardless of how benevolent its audible effects.  That violates the "all other things being equal" proviso.

Cheers,

Dave.

[medium jim]

Josh,

I understand, but it's confusing for folks when you mention an implied equivalence between SS amplifiers and tube amplifiers of half the power.  It's much more complicated than that. 

Soft-clipping is distortion.....regardless of how benevolent its audible effects.  That violates the "all other things being equal" proviso.

Cheers,

Dave.

Music just seems heavier or more weighted with tubes and for me, satiates at lower spl's that their counterpart SS amps that need to be driven to higher spl's to flesh things out, especially the dynamics.  Then there is the fact that tubes reproduce all of the harmonics (in Triode), whereas SS doesn't.  But again this is a personal choice. It is amazing how more detail there is in Triode which I listen in about half of the time. 

I guess the best advice is not to rain on others parades.  It is not as bad here as it is at the AA.

Jim

[Rclark]

Solid State amps of the modern age have no such issue. As I've stated before, the Ncores are gobsmacking even at extremely low levels, and have the same quality of sound at any volume level, maxed out or quiet as a mouse, all super dynamic and crystal clear. Solid State from way back in the day is just that, solid state from way back in the day and no longer counts. Just like I wouldn't use some old tube amp and consider it to be equivalent to the state of the art tube amp.

There are many, many benefits to modern solid state, including but not limited to superior bass. Very high power, superior sound quality, superior efficiency, no need for power conditioning necessarily, at least not with Ncores, very low heat, very low footprint...

With Maggies attached there is just such an effortless ease to the sound, never strains, never ever fatiguing, everything translated perfectly and clearly. These are listen all day long and then some amps..

Put a modern day SS amp in your system, you can't say the amps of yesteryear are any sort of equivalent, this technology is improving too hard and too fast now.

... I have an amp the size of a drink coaster in my case that can do over 600 watts at 2 ohms and has unmeasurable distortion and a 130dB noise floor...

 That wasn't going on even four years ago, let alone back in the day.

[medium jim]

Funny thing is, my dinosaur tube amps are worth more now than when they were reissued in 1997...when released were only $8800 for a pair and today if you can find them go for 12k and more, go figure...

Why people want to rain on others parades is beyond me, I guess it makes them feel better about themselves or gives them some sort of selfish pleasure. 

Jim

[josh358]

You get those Tympanis going in that room and the only thing you're going to be hearing is the ringing in your ears.

These days, I hear enough of that even without listening to anything.

[medium jim]

These days, I hear enough of that even without listening to anything.

Now that is funny...

Jim

[josh358]

One opined that on smaller (I guess he means low powered) amps that they will often clip, but you are not aware of it, really? I think if an amp was clipping, tube or SS, it would be audible, especially with SS.

Surprisingly, he's right. They've done studies that show that a certain amount of short term clipping is inaudible. Of course once it gets to a certain point, you do start to hear it and it sounds dreadful. Much more so with an amp that hard clips than an amp that soft clips.

Another consideration is that the high frequency harmonics of a clipped signal are a great way to fry a tweeter. My feeling as I've said is that it should be avoided, but the fact is that it does occur in many systems.