[wushuliu]

When researching TTs I read a lot about how older turntables (<'80s) can be competitive with newer ones, but I've yet to come across any actual price ranges or direct comparisons. So let's say someone has a 1k budget (NOT including cart) to allow for some of the best of the older models or even a modest tonearm upgrade. Is it possible to compete with a >$3K new table? Or have developments in materials and construction become insurpassable?

[TheChairGuy]

There's probably been some advance in materials over the past 30 years....offset by the smaller scale of turntables being made (so massive investment in bettering older designs doesn't exist largely)

However, your $1 then vs. $3 today mention is about right. 

If you stick $1 in to the Bureau of Labor Statistics CPI calculator for 1980 - using official government inflation statistics (many think it is much higher than this - but that's another subject) you'll see $1 in 1980 equals $2.79 in 2012.

http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

[Ericus Rex]

I think Wushuliu means will dropping $1K now on vintage get him the equivalent of dropping $3K on current production.  Am I right about that?

[wushuliu]

I think Wushuliu means will dropping $1K now on vintage get him the equivalent of dropping $3K on current production.  Am I right about that?

Yes, this is what I meant.

[Delta Wave]

My deck is from the late 70s and it's superb. I have about 1k invested in it including the tweaked arm & cart. 

[SteveFord]

I'd think any of the old Well Tempered Turntables would aquit themselves pretty well.

[neobop]

It hasn't ceased to amaze me how the price of vintage tables has gone up in the last few years.  A few years ago I was thinking about driving 60 miles to buy a SP10 MK2 in decent shape with obsidian base and some kind of arm, MMT?  Can't remember.  It was around $1200.  I didn't get it cause I was working long hours and too tired.  Sorry I passed that up, those deals seem to be a thing of the past.   With that in mind, I'll have to say the answer is a definite maybe, if you're lucky.  It depends on the specifics of the deal and probably the price range you're in.  For example, a VPI Classic is $2800.  It might be hard to beat that for < $1K, but in other price ranges it really depends on the deal and what you prefer.  Preference is the biggest factor here, IMO.  Then you need patience and lots of luck.
neo

[Delta Wave]

I like the good Luxmans & Micro Seikis. There are 2 PD121s on fleabay at the moment, fantastic tables. I know people love their Empires too, I've been on the lookout for one myself.

[wushuliu]

It hasn't ceased to amaze me how the price of vintage tables has gone up in the last few years.  A few years ago I was thinking about driving 60 miles to buy a SP10 MK2 in decent shape with obsidian base and some kind of arm, MMT?  Can't remember.  It was around $1200.  I didn't get it cause I was working long hours and too tired.  Sorry I passed that up, those deals seem to be a thing of the past.   With that in mind, I'll have to say the answer is a definite maybe, if you're lucky.  It depends on the specifics of the deal and probably the price range you're in.  For example, a VPI Classic is $2800.  It might be hard to beat that for < $1K, but in other price ranges it really depends on the deal and what you prefer.  Preference is the biggest factor here, IMO.  Then you need patience and lots of luck.
neo

I'm curious about tables like the Yamaha PF-800 and 1000s which can still be found under 1k as well as the high end Denons. I'm just surprised there aren't more direct comparisons. I just assumed given how small the vinyl community has become (since it's heyday) that there would be more exposure to different tables. But maybe this is where economics come into play - if you can afford a VPI Classic then an older tt was probably never a consideration?

I mean look at the PF-800 and 1000. I almost don't care if a $3k table is better because it the PF looks too frickin' cool.

Still it would be informative to know how something like that stacks up now.

[JackD]

Then you might be interested in this by an actual B&M dealer

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Denon-DP62L-DP-62L-ALL-Parts-S-Wand-Original-Box-New-Grado-Gold-Cartridge-/130840025222?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item1e76ac5886

[wushuliu]

Then you might be interested in this by an actual B&M dealer

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Denon-DP62L-DP-62L-ALL-Parts-S-Wand-Original-Box-New-Grado-Gold-Cartridge-/130840025222?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item1e76ac5886

Thanks for the link (why is it other people are better at searching ebay than me?) but I am not looking to buy. I am looking to get feedback/opinions/thoughts based on people's direct experiences with new and old turntables.

[SET Man]

It hasn't ceased to amaze me how the price of vintage tables has gone up in the last few years.  A few years ago I was thinking about driving 60 miles to buy a SP10 MK2 in decent shape with obsidian base and some kind of arm, MMT?  Can't remember.  It was around $1200.  I didn't get it cause I was working long hours and too tired.  Sorry I passed that up, those deals seem to be a thing of the past.   With that in mind, I'll have to say the answer is a definite maybe, if you're lucky.  It depends on the specifics of the deal and probably the price range you're in.  For example, a VPI Classic is $2800.  It might be hard to beat that for < $1K, but in other price ranges it really depends on the deal and what you prefer.  Preference is the biggest factor here, IMO.  Then you need patience and lots of luck.
neo

Hey!

   I noticed the price of old TTs have gone up in recent years. I remembered in the mid '90s the price of old TTs and used LPs were dirt cheap compared to today's.
 
   Well, who knew? If I did I would have got a few to sell for more today.

Take care,
Buddy

   

[SET Man]

When researching TTs I read a lot about how older turntables (<'80s) can be competitive with newer ones, but I've yet to come across any actual price ranges or direct comparisons. So let's say someone has a 1k budget (NOT including cart) to allow for some of the best of the older models or even a modest tonearm upgrade. Is it possible to compete with a >$3K new table? Or have developments in materials and construction become insurpassable?

Hey!

   As for TT, not all vintage one are good. But I have to say that for $1K you can find a nice vintage TT that can complete well with higher priced current TT today. And I rather spend money on good modern cart than on a new TT. Actually my current TT and arm are now a little over 40 years old now... of course I have modern cart on it. It sounds fine to me.

Take care,
Buddy

[WC]

They compared an older modded table to newer tables, but the cost of the table with mods approached $2,000.

http://www.tonepublications.com/analogaholic/sl-1200-upgrades-sound-hifi/

[wushuliu]

They compared an older modded table to newer tables, but the cost of the table with mods approached $2,000.

http://www.tonepublications.com/analogaholic/sl-1200-upgrades-sound-hifi/

thanks

[Elizabeth]

One point to consider on old tables with drive electronics is the caps and electronics can be in bad shape or soon to be in bad shape.
Lots of questions around on stuff going wrong with speed lock, bad hydraulic lifts.. etc.
I have recently owned two vintage TTs. Denon Dp59L which I sold, and a Dual Golden One (still own).
I currently use a Rega P5, and a Kuzma Stabi/Stogi S.
At this point in time it is is pretty hard to luck out and find a reasonably priced vintage TT.
All the good ones have been snatched up.. or are insane prices.
I never sold the Dual because IMO new tables are better...
My Dual has auto lift at end, and auto drop.. so i may keep it around so when I get really old and cannot see for anything, i can still use a TT.

[neobop]

One point to consider on old tables with drive electronics is the caps and electronics can be in bad shape or soon to be in bad shape.
Lots of questions around on stuff going wrong with speed lock, bad hydraulic lifts.. etc.
I have recently owned two vintage TTs. Denon Dp59L which I sold, and a Dual Golden One (still own).
I currently use a Rega P5, and a Kuzma Stabi/Stogi S.
At this point in time it is is pretty hard to luck out and find a reasonably priced vintage TT.
All the good ones have been snatched up.. or are insane prices.
I never sold the Dual because IMO new tables are better...
My Dual has auto lift at end, and auto drop.. so i may keep it around so when I get really old and cannot see for anything, i can still use a TT.

That's all true, and it gets worse.  If you get an old Yamaha PF 1000, do you think Yamaha will have parts for a 25 yr old table?  What if the main bearing is worn or the suspension sags? Can you DIY or figure out a suitable replacement part? Replacing bad caps or resistors is a straightforward swap, what about a chip that hasn't been made for years? Chances are you or a tech can't fix it, if you can't get the part.  You would need an EE or a doner table - like owning an antique car. I have a parts table for my Sony PS-X50, not as a precaution, because the first one arrived with a platter that wobbled around an inch - maybe a bent spindle. 
Shipping is always a problem.  Some people know how to pack a table, most don't.  Insurance claims on shipping damage is a nightmare.

Now that you've heard some possible pitfalls, there are plenty of people that own vintage tables that punch way beyond the $ spent. The problem is that many of the prices I've seen lately are crazy, especially from dealers. There's a DP-59L on Agon now that's over $800. The pretty ones tend to be more overpriced. You're taking a risk and that should be deducted from the price and you should be prepared for an eventuality. Even if you have 30 days to check it out, you could have a problem in 40 days. You can still find some reasonable deals, it's just getting harder.
neo 
   

[wushuliu]

I'm really only concerned with the question I posted. I am not looking for a table. I am asking, all else being equal...

[neobop]

I'm really only concerned with the question I posted. I am not looking for a table. I am asking, all else being equal...

All else is never equal.  But the answer to your question, in general, is yes it's possible to compete at 3x, but that likelihood grows increasingly rare.  Unless you're looking for a specific comparison, I don't think it's possible to expound on that. When choosing, perhaps one might use the tao or friendly spirits for guidance.
neo

[wushuliu]

All else is never equal.  But the answer to your question, in general, is yes it's possible to compete at 3x, but that likelihood grows increasingly rare.  Unless you're looking for a specific comparison, I don't think it's possible to expound on that. When choosing, perhaps one might use the tao or friendly spirits for guidance.
neo

At this point I interpret most of the answers to equal 'we don't know', which is fine. I have gleaned enough from posts here and there and at Akarma to reach my own conclusions. This is not a question that requires the least bit of zen.