[doug s.]

Let's please not put down the opinions and experience of others in this thread. That isn't what AC should be about.

it's ok roscoe, i don't mind.  i am pretty thick skinned regarding inane audio discussions.  yust don't get me started on religion or politics!   

and what do i know, anyway?  after all, this is what has occupied >90% of my listening time the last 3 months!   


doug s.

[jarcher]

Ahh, vinylistas... but I realize this is the vinyl circle.  However, the OP has an excellent sounding system (at least based on its parts, all of which I am familiar with) and will probably have a better idea of good sound than many of those who post in this circle, so I strongly suspect that for him it will take much more than an entry-level rig to appreciate any positive qualities vinyl has to offer.

Given the quality of the OPs system and his standards, I'm also wondering whether an entry level vinyl system is going to cut it for him. While I agree that vinyl systems bring certain charms to music I don't always find in digital sources, this doesn't mean that these charms outweigh the disadvantages vs digital at any price / quality point. In these last two years revisiting vinyl I've heard a lot of sub par records and mediocre playback systems. It ain't all wine and roses folks.

[rbbert]

There's little doubt that my opinions and experience have been put down more than anyone else's in this thread, but I rather enjoy the discourse.  For one thing, I've listened to LP's on audiophile quality systems for longer than many or most posters here.

Let me pose a question: has anyone here (other than me) tried to audibly distinguish an LP from a hires digital recording of it (on a Korg in DSD, or 24/192 PCM from Metric Halo, Sound Devices or others)?  Notice that those are all "consumer" A>D products; I suspect more expensive professional products are even better.

[doug s.]

i have zero experience w/hi-rez digital; my comments are based solely on redbook compared to winyl...

doug s.

[audiogoober]

There's little doubt that my opinions and experience have been put down more than anyone else's in this thread, but I rather enjoy the discourse.  For one thing, I've listened to LP's on audiophile quality systems for longer than many or most posters here.

Let me pose a question: has anyone here (other than me) tried to audibly distinguish an LP from a hires digital recording of it (on a Korg in DSD, or 24/192 PCM from Metric Halo, Sound Devices or others)?  Notice that those are all "consumer" A>D products; I suspect more expensive professional products are even better.

I think that might be a good question in a separate thread of your own. I don't understand how any of this analog vs digital debate will help me choose a good first TT?

[doug s.]

here's my idea if getting into killer winyl playback on the cheap:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=113410.msg1180870#msg1180870

doug s.

[rbbert]

I think that might be a good question in a separate thread of your own. I don't understand how any of this analog vs digital debate will help me choose a good first TT?

It won't.  I think the consensus is in agreement with your decision to buy the VPI; get a comparable quality cartridge and pre-amp and you should be quite happy with the sound.  Some posters just think that's a lot of money to gamble if you end up not liking it, but most also think a lesser quality setup won't give you a fair opinion of LP playback.

[roscoeiii]

Thankfully not a gamble if you order from Music Direct, with their excellent return policy. And you may want to check with them on whether they think a Scout or a Traveller makes the most sense in your case. I'd ask for Chris, since he seems to be their vinyl expert. I know he uses a VPI table himself.

[Wayner]

I have no idea how a tuner ended up in this post.

Wayner

[doug s.]

the only vpi deck i'd be interested in is the classic.  why?  it's a modern iteration of the unsuspended empire.     if you don't want an empire, and/or if budget is an issue, wait for a used vpi classic...

doug s.

[tomytoons]

Ok, my 2 cents worth.

What you should have done was bought the Technics 1200 for $300. Checked out vinyl for a few months and if you like what you heard enough turn it around for at least $750+ and a fair profit.

I had a Denon DP60L the manual version of the DP62L. It was a nice table of course I should have not sold it. In mint condition and all the parts like the one you were looking at it is easily worth that price of $650+, now I see them going for more and not complete and a bit beat up too. Those tables sold for that 20 years ago.

Vinyl is what it is and the only way to compare sound to digital (I don't like doing that) would be using the same music.
Quality in vinyl like CD'S (I'm not into PC) is all over the place good bad and down right terrible. I do think it costs more to get better quality from analog that is satisfying compared to digital.

So if passing on the Technics and the Denon possibly get a VPI from Music Direct that can be returned.
I don't think I would start as high as a Scout Master. Phono pre I'm not even going to get into it

Actually, if I didn't already have a vinyl collection I would NOT consider getting into it. Cleaning machine etc etc for used vinyl is a must.
As someone else said invest more into your digital setup.

I've been through a fair amount of tables and Phono pre's in 30 years.

I have also seen some nice Empires, never heard one though.

I know that was not a lot of help.

[doug s.]

regarding record cleaning, i have used cleaning machines, and they are nice.  but, i have done yust fine w/a clean sponge, mild dish soap, lukewarm water, and a soft clean lint-free towel for drying...

one accessory i won't do w/out is a "dust-bug" - an arm w/a brush on the end that tracks the record grooves opposite the tonearm, and keeps the record & stylus clean.  they are awailable w/a grounding wire that helps keep down static as well...

doug s.

[neobop]

Goober,
Awhile back we had a poster with a nice digital system.  He wanted to get into records and spent around $2500 (I think) on a record player and phono stage. He didn't have a clue about vinyl, and apparently didn't research it.  He didn't even know that records had to be cleaned.  To make a long story short, he was disappointed.

Although I think you have a better idea of whats involved, do you have any experience with other peoples record players, or are  you sure you want to get into it full tilt?  I'm just trying to give you some perspective.  If the Denon is still available I'd recommend that to get started.  I haven't heard the Traveller, but I have heard the Classic and that's what it would take to match the Denon, IMO.  Around 5 lbs of clay inside and a Funk Firm or Boston mat, and you'll only be limited by the cartridge and phono stage.  Speaking of phono stages, you'd be better off getting a nicer one to start off. Perhaps a used Simaudio LP3, Graham Slee or Phonomena II. A V-Lps would be decent for MMs if you're sticking with high output.  VPI makes a nice 16.5 record cleaning machine. It's $600 new, used around $450. You'll also need RCM fluid and clean record sleeves. The list goes on, stylus cleaner, platform or wall bracket for the table, record storage. Lets not forget a nice cartridge.

It's not that I'm trying to discourage, it's more like a reality check, just a lot of stuff to get a decent glimpse.  Whatever you get, I hope it works out.
neo

[AlbumCollector]

I'm considering jumping into the vinyl arena and need some recommendations on a decent entry level TT, tonearm, etc. I'd like to keep the cost around $500 or below.

I have access to a mint Technics SL-1200mkII (photo below) and am thinking about grabbing it...the motor is strong, pitch is dead center, tone arm is smooth, comes complete and ready to play for under $300. Would this or possibly a Rega P2 be a good start??

Any suggestions or recommendations are greatly appreciated. Thanks!

I recommend going with a Rega RP1, which is currently on sale at AA, http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1RERP1%20%20%20%20GRY

IMHO, it's a much better turntable than the Technics.

The RP1 will get you started on vinyl the right way. For less than $400 it's a steal.

I've owned dozens of tables over the last forty years and wish the Rega had been around when I was starting out.

Although I'd like to believe my old Phillips 212 might have given the RP1 a good contest.  Philips GA 212,  http://www.vinylengine.com/library/philips/ga-212.shtml

[jarcher]

I dont see the risk in getting a vpi from music direct. If within 30 days you don't like it (or vinyl in general), you return it & your just out the shipping costs. There's a very defined and knowabłe downside.

We can argue about what the best bang for the buck is, but you got to start somewhere, and I think very few would argue that any vpi is a bad table. I will say that I for one wouldn't be comfortable starting with a used 20+ year old table unless my investment was minimal. No guarantee / warranty, hassles of resale, and unknowable resale value.   There are enough variables to contend with starting out with vinyl, that it seems imprudent to add to them.

[WireNut]

The list goes on, stylus cleaner, platform or wall bracket for the table, record storage. Lets not forget a nice cartridge.

 Yeah, I'm finding that out real quick. Fortunately I picked up a mint Technics SL-D3 TT with a Shure cartridge on Craigslist for $50.00
and then bought a DJpre2 phono preamp for $48.00 to get me up and running with my Sonic Frontiers Preamp. Total cost $98.00 and I'm up and running and listening to my 20-30 year old vinyl collection again.

Now I can sit back and enjoy my vinyl collection while I take my time looking into New and better cartridge's and phono preamps.
Im glad I did it this way.

Steve
 

[usp1]

As some one in a very similar situation to the OP, I went out and purchased an inexpensive Dual CS-530 for $60; paid $35 for tubes for the phono section of my Rogue 66 magnum to get started. Now I am agonizing about my next step ...the vpi/well tempered/thorens/technics/sota used vs. pro-ject/rega new decision. But in the mean time I am enjoying playing vinyl. Take the plunge with something cheap while you decide on your more expensive set up. Having something to play with takes off the edge of decision making.

[neobop]

Given the quality of the OPs system and his standards, I'm also wondering whether an entry level vinyl system is going to cut it for him. While I agree that vinyl systems bring certain charms to music I don't always find in digital sources, this doesn't mean that these charms outweigh the disadvantages vs digital at any price / quality point. In these last two years revisiting vinyl I've heard a lot of sub par records and mediocre playback systems. It ain't all wine and roses folks.

Goober is used to digital with zero wow and flutter.  He might be one of those people (like me) that need a table with better speed stability than a belt driver < $3K.   I'd have to have a speed box to live with a HW-19 for example.  I have an old Sota Sapphire I can't listen to because of that, otherwise it has its strong points.  I doubt if a $900 speed box, or whatever it costs, would do it for me.  It's pretty bad.  Assuming the Denon is working properly, it's a better investment and less expensive to start out with.  After my Linn LP12, I went direct drive and never looked back.  I only have the Sota because it was thrown in as part of a deal I now regret.

I don't know if Goober is as sensitive to speed variations.  I listen to a lot of piano music and acoustic stuff.  It's hard enough with some old records pressed off-center etc, without adding to that problem.  A direct drive is generally easier to place, especially if there's a suspension involved, and 6 months down the road if OP decides vinyl isn't for him, he might make a profit selling the Denon. 

Just my perspective,
neo

[kbuzz3]

Wayner what kind of platform is that under your empire pic in your gallery.  I could not pm you