[josh358]

This has been puzzlingly me for some time. 2 3.7s, 2 DWMs and you still need one or two subs if you want to go low. That is a lot of speakers, too many INMHO.

In my room I now have a pair of 1.7s (had 3.7s) and feel that slight Maggie leanness in the mid bass area. I also  often feel the need for a sub or two. However, I don't see the logic of spending a ton of money and added complication. Remember that each additional speakers require interconnects and troublesome placement problems.

Guys if Magnepan wants to correct the deficiencies (slight but noticeable) inherent in their speakers design, they need to go back to the drawing board. I always told my students that when things start to get to complicated it is time to step back and fix the design.

Your post points to a problem that dealers first raised when Wendell suggested the DWM/big Maggie combo -- that customers would think that there was something wrong with the Maggie bass.

In fact, as Wendell points out, they can only tune the bass response of a speaker to an average room. Large rooms have less (but smoother) bass than small ones. Placement also matters, as do building materials. So there's no one size fits all for Maggies or any speaker.

What the DWM's do is allow you to tune the woofer area to large rooms, rather than address a deficiency in the bass. If Magnepan tuned the speakers to increase bass output they would have too much bass in typical rooms.

That being said, most speakers have problems in the midbass. This is caused by the Allison Effect, e.g., room reflections that are delayed on the order of half a wavelength (omnis) or a wavelength (dipoles) and produce peaks and notches in the midbass response curve. Depending on placement and orientation, dipoles can be more susceptible to this than omnis, owing to the fact that the bass energy is directional; this is advantageous in terms of taming room modes but it's a disadvantage in terms of taming the Allison Effect because omnis can potentially be positioned to "split the difference" in midbass cancellation, e.g., a different woofer distance from the side walls, the front, and the ceiling and floor. The cancellation is best dealt with by some combination of placement, bass trapping, and moderate equalization (not more than 3 dB or so gain). But it isn't a function of woofer output -- since they're caused by phase reinforcement and cancellation the peaks and notches are invariant with respect to amplitude. Adding the DWM's might mitigate the problem somewhat by pushing up the midbass response, but I don't think they'll eliminate the nulls and you'd want to use EQ in an average room to keep the peaks from going too high. (But then IMO you should always use bass EQ.)

[josh358]

I have been told that the bass from the Tympani is the gold standard for the Magnepan line...how does it compare to the 20 or 3 series?

The reviews say it's still better.

To put it in perspective, the Tympani midbass is pretty universally reckoned (by those same reviewers and by Wendell himself) the best of all time.

Wendell says though that he's been able to get midbass comparable to the Tympanis on the single-panel models by adding DWM woofers, and he's going to be doing a demonstration at CES to prove his point -- DWM's vs. Tympanis.

[josh358]

I have two pairs of 3.7’s as surrounds.  When in all channel stereo mode (theoretically the same stereo signal to all pairs of speakers), one pair will have a definite difference in performance.  Even Audyssey Pro calibration set their crossovers and different points.  I would have thought that since both pairs are identical the crossovers would be the same.  It must be their positions in the room that are making the difference.

Because of room modes, room and listener position makes a huge difference with any speaker. Audyssey is presumably deciding not to compensate completely because you can't boost bass response too much without overloading the speaker and amp. In the case of complete nulls, EQ won't do anything at all, since the signal is completely cancelled.

[Hasse]

I sometimes feel my 12 year old 3.6´s had more bass than my current 3.7´s, but perhaps they are not broken-in yet.....or will the 3.6´s really go lower?

Speaking of Pass Labs, anyone heard the XA.5 monos on the 3-series? Heard they would be an excellent match.

[rw@cn]

I can relate to the things popping up - my refrigerator is now the back porch.  Good thing it's wintertime.
You should have sufficient bass with the 20.7s and I suspect you will be off the speaker upgrade merry go round.
It's off to the doctor for me, this sinus infection just will not go away.

Neil or Rite Aid sinus rinse twice a day. My left sinus had a habit of becoming infected every winter for more than a decade, then I started using the sinus rinse and no infections for about 5 years now.

[rw@cn]

Josh thanks for the reasoned response.

[jhm731]

The reviews say it's still better.

To put it in perspective, the Tympani midbass is pretty universally reckoned (by those same reviewers and by Wendell himself) the best of all time.

Wendell says though that he's been able to get midbass comparable to the Tympanis on the single-panel models by adding DWM woofers, and he's going to be doing a demonstration at CES to prove his point -- DWM's vs. Tympanis.

The midbass on my T-1Ds was awesome.

Is anyone going to CES?

Has anyone seen a picture of the larger single-panel models with DWMs?

From Magnepan website:
"Most of the area of any full-range Maggie is devoted to bass reproduction. (In the case of the 20.7, 76% of the total radiating area is devoted to bass.)"

If the same percent applies to the 3.7, then a 20.7 has about 34% more bass radiating area. It looks like a 3.7 with a DWM would have the same bass radiating area as a 20.7 for a lot less money.

[medium jim]

Neil or Rite Aid sinus rinse twice a day. My left sinus had a habit of becoming infected every winter for more than a decade, then I started using the sinus rinse and no infections for about 5 years now.

Maybe I should try that....right now my right ear is giving me problems, feels like the right side of my head is listening in a fish bowl.  I usually can alleviate it by using ear wax removal solution for several days....

Jim

[jimdgoulding]

Jim-  Don't know how many of you great sound enthusiasts have had your doctor clean your ears, but I was mazed at what came out of them.  Looked like .22 caliber bullets.  Getting into my car afterwards, the rain hitting the roof sounded quite different and the newpapers I had covered the carpet with did, too.  I was so amazed I went straight home (before returning to work) and listened a very good recording of some Bach and could clearly make out the dome of the church in which the recording was made for the first time.

[medium jim]

Jim-  Don't know how many of you great sound enthusiasts have had your doctor clean your ears, but I was mazed at what came out of them.  Looked like .22 caliber bullets.  Getting into my car afterwards, the rain hitting the roof sounded quite different and the newpapers I had covered the carpet with did, too.  I was so amazed I went straight home (before returning to work) and listened a very good recording of some Bach and could clearly make out the dome of the church in which the recording was made for the first time.

Jim:

I've suffered from sinusitus for too many years and the associated pressure in the sinus cavities usually leads to wax build up.  I use prescribed medication for the nose and have had my ears roto rootered by my Dr...he is the one who told me to save the co-pay and to use an earwax removal kit.  Yes, the difference is day and night expecially in the upper frequencies. 

All that aside, I'm open to anything that will work...

Jim

[rw@cn]

Maybe I should try that....right now my right ear is giving me problems, feels like the right side of my head is listening in a fish bowl.  I usually can alleviate it by using ear wax removal solution for several days....

Jim

Disregard.

[rw@cn]

Jim:

I've suffered from sinusitus for too many years and the associated pressure in the sinus cavities usually leads to wax build up.  I use prescribed medication for the nose and have had my ears roto rootered by my Dr...he is the one who told me to save the co-pay and to use an earwax removal kit.  Yes, the difference is day and night expecially in the upper frequencies. 

All that aside, I'm open to anything that will work...

Jim

My doctor told me to use a few drops of baby oil in each ear. Turn head sideways, insert a few drops, wait about a minute, turn head to allow the baby oil to drain, finally use a towel to dry ear and remove wax. Repeat with other ear. The doctor also said that a gentle flush with warm water would also be useful. Twice a week.

[medium jim]

My doctor told me to use a few drops of baby oil in each ear. Turn head sideways, insert a few drops, wait about a minute, turn head to allow the baby oil to drain, finally use a towel to dry ear and remove wax. Repeat with other ear. The doctor also said that a gentle flush with warm water would also be useful. Twice a week.

That is basically what I do, but only when a get excess earwax, caused by sinusitis.  The difference is the solution in the kit contains hyrdogen-peroxide and I believe an anti-inflammatory agent. You flush it out with a bulb of warm water.  After a few days any and all wax is removed.

Sorry for the off topic subject matter, but caring for the ears is rather important.

Jim

[SteveFord]

It's a good thing I didn't say stomach issues.
It's bronchitis, what fun.  I gave it to the Mrs. who got the beginning stages of pneumonia.

Okay, back to this 3.7/DMW combo...

[josh358]

The midbass on my T-1Ds was awesome.

Is anyone going to CES?

Has anyone seen a picture of the larger single-panel models with DWMs?

From Magnepan website:
"Most of the area of any full-range Maggie is devoted to bass reproduction. (In the case of the 20.7, 76% of the total radiating area is devoted to bass.)"

If the same percent applies to the 3.7, then a 20.7 has about 34% more bass radiating area. It looks like a 3.7 with a DWM would have the same bass radiating area as a 20.7 for a lot less money.

On mine too. Memories of that magisterial midbass definitely contributed to my not-so-practical decision to go with the IVa's.

Maybe Kevin wants to try the DWM's? He doesn't have enough space for 20.7's.

The DWM+3.7 combo could actually have more bass than you'd expect from combining diaphragm area. For one thing, it appears that the baffles join acoustically to some extent, lowering Fequal -- if they're close enough, anyway. For another, the DWM's are typically used against the side wall, which doubles their effective baffle area, again lowering Fequal -- that's why they can be so much smaller than the full-range Maggies and still have reasonable bass extension.

Of course, the 20.7 diaphragm is also tuned lower, if it's like the 20.1 its nominal 3 dB point is 25 Hz, lower than any other Maggie (including the Tympanis). Also, the drivers are push-pull which doubles field strength and should tend to cancel even-order harmonics. And I gather that the 20.7 midrange has lower mass, though I'm not certain (just going by what I've read online). Though I still haven't heard the 20.7, the consensus seems to be that it does what the 3.7 does but better in every frequency range.

[josh358]

It's a good thing I didn't say stomach issues.
It's bronchitis, what fun.  I gave it to the Mrs. who got the beginning stages of pneumonia.

Okay, back to this 3.7/DMW combo...

Ouch! Bronchitis is the pits, I used to get it whenever I got the flu. Solved it by not getting the flu. Hope you guys feel better soon.

Agree about the ear wax -- problem is, with me, it builds up very gradually and I don't notice that my hearing is impaired until it clogs up entirely. Then the ENT guy removes big plugs and I'm amazed at the difference in my hearing. I should probably get me one of those kits, or do the baby oil thing.

[Davey]

I used to go to the ENT once every couple of years, but not so much lately.  There are some medical professionals that feel occasional removal of ear wax with various implements should be avoided and that regular maintenance/removal with various solutions is the best method.
However, once it builds to a point, the only quick way to remove is a trip to the doctor. 

When you have your ears clean, keep them clean.    A drop or two of mineral oil every once in a while inhibits ear wax production, and it's a good idea to put some ear-removal drops in occasionally to clean out what's there.  A few drops in the evening, and then a flush in the shower the next morning.

Regular ear cleaning will improve the bass output of your 3.7's. 

Cheers,

Dave.

[jimdgoulding]

What are DWM's ?

[josh358]

What are DWM's ?

The Maggie woofer, a small panel that was developed to provide bass support for bass-limited Maggies like the onwall and Mini-Maggie but that turned out to be useful with even the larger ones.

[josh358]

I used to go to the ENT once every couple of years, but not so much lately.  There are some medical professionals that feel occasional removal of ear wax with various implements should be avoided and that regular maintenance/removal with various solutions is the best method.
However, once it builds to a point, the only quick way to remove is a trip to the doctor. 

When you have your ears clean, keep them clean.    A drop or two of mineral oil every once in a while inhibits ear wax production, and it's a good idea to put some ear-removal drops in occasionally to clean out what's there.  A few drops in the evening, and then a flush in the shower the next morning.

Regular ear cleaning will improve the bass output of your 3.7's. 

Cheers,

Dave.

Yeah, that ENT process is a bit nerve-wracking. Preferable, though, I suspect, to the syringe-with-warm-water approach that nurses and GP's use -- I'm concerned that the high levels could cause hearing damage.

You're right, I'm sure, that periodic prophylaxis is the way to go. Something else to think about doing . . .