[NewHTbuyer]

Great to see my upcoming shootout is creating some good discussion.  I am pretty new to high end audio, so I figure I should do it right and really try to end up with a speaker I like.  Right now my electronics are not up to par with any of these speakers, but I know that a speaker and the room are the two most important components as far as the sound quality.  Maybe later I will invest in more expensive electronics.  Right now I will be powering the speakers with a 120wpc HK 3490 stereo receiver with standard 16awg speaker cables.

Albert offered to partially break in the speakers for me.  I also plan to run each set with a repeating bass track for at least 2 straight days once I receive them, so about 50 hours minimum break in time.

As far as the SVS, they are the underdog in this fight.  The VR-22s and the Ascends with the ribbons are almost $3,000.  The Phil 2s retail for about that also, although Dennis Murphy, the designer/owner, had a pair leftover from his initial cabinet order, which are Chinese, so he is selling them to me for only $2,000.   All the newer Philharmonic stuff is made in the USA.  Also, Dennis is pretty well known for his crossover designs.  Salk sounds uses Dennis Murphy crossovers.   I believe that the Ascends are made in the US, or at least assembled here.  Not sure about the SVS.

[sharpsuxx]

Very well said Gavin. I was looking at a video on YouTube about B&W speakers (my cousin owns a pair) and they have opened a plant in China!  Heck, my Pioneer Plasma TV is made here, in CA, can you believe that?

Too bad they went out of business, those things were awesome.  Now it is all made in China, Mexico, or Japan under Sharp Elite.  American manufacturing companies need to get their stuff together, the higher priced labor only adds so much, their 100+% mark ups after covering there overhead and obsession with marketing dollars are driving them out of business.

Not dogging american made speakers, but even a lot of American companies use Chinese drivers.  My american made Vapor Cirrus use tweeters from Serbia (VR-22s use a similar tweeter it looks like) and woofers hand made in Denmark.

I did here my first set on VSA speakers at RMAF this year, pretty cool stuff.  Look forward to seeing the results of the shoot out, that SVS stuff might be good for a homtheater or secondary system or something some day.

[BigSwede]

Most of my system is made in America, nearly all of it, except my Emotiva player.

I never really thought about it, but my system is nearly all USA made as well. Bel Canto player and integrated, and VR-33s. I do have a Japan-made Denon turntable from the 80s but I hardly use it.

[es347]

BigSwede expect a visit from the audiophile police to confiscate your TT 

[BigSwede]

Yeah, I guess I'm a lazy audiophile...don't do vinyl really, had my fill of that PITA ritual back in college days...don't do tubes either.

That Denon (DP-15F) was a decent turntable in it's day, still works fine.

[Rclark]

I never really thought about it, but my system is nearly all USA made as well. Bel Canto player and integrated, and VR-33s. I do have a Japan-made Denon turntable from the 80s but I hardly use it.

I have Ncores too but for some reason I think they're made in Europe.

[ss397]

I think this is a great concept for a thread. I have long lusted after the VS speakers, but never owned any, I tried to buy some used VR 6's long ago but was not able to make it happen. I look forward to the results of the comparison.

[es347]

I think this is a great concept for a thread. I have long lusted after the VS speakers, but never owned any, I tried to buy some used VR 6's long ago but was not able to make it happen. I look forward to the results of the comparison.

..your handle looks like mine with typos 

[Delacroix]

Hi 'NewHTBuyer'

Welcome to AC!   This is an ambitious plan you have outlined so naturally many of us will be interested. I think it's a dream of many folks to arrange trials in their own homes of several products before purchasing but the logistics and costs are often beyond most people.  As is usual here, we really like new members to tell us a little about themselves and their system(s), so please tell us more, for sure! That HK receiver you have has attracted my own interest recently as I am seeking a decent powerhouse for a secondary rig, but what else will you be using?  If you have started similar threads on the other forums you mention but if so, I'd be happy to follow those links too.

Best wishes

Patrick (Delacroix, moderator)

[NewHTbuyer]

Hi 'NewHTBuyer'

Welcome to AC!   This is an ambitious plan you have outlined so naturally many of us will be interested. I think it's a dream of many folks to arrange trials in their own homes of several products before purchasing but the logistics and costs are often beyond most people.  As is usual here, we really like new members to tell us a little about themselves and their system(s), so please tell us more, for sure! That HK receiver you have has attracted my own interest recently as I am seeking a decent powerhouse for a secondary rig, but what else will you be using?  If you have started similar threads on the other forums you mention but if so, I'd be happy to follow those links too.

Best wishes

Patrick (Delacroix, moderator)

Happy to join Audiocircle.  I usually browse over at Audioholics and AVSForum.  As I said, I am pretty new to HiFi.  I had a nice system back in college in 1992, NAD 1600 preamp and 2400 amp plus Infinity Reference 4 speakers which have the Emit-R tweeter.  They served me well for 20 years.  Right now the NAD stuff is powering my outdoor speakers and, while I like the Infinity speakers, it is definitely time for an upgrade.  My family room has a 5.1 system from 2008(I am more a home theater guy than audiophile).  I decide to get new equipment for my basement as a place to listen to music and still watch some TV, although just a 2.0 system, no surround or subs.  I have the HK receiver and a Sony BDP-s590 player(I wanted the Oppo 93, but wanted to start cheap on the electronics.  I picked the Sony because it plays SACDs).

Here are the threads I have already started.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/loudspeakers/82334-%242-000-3-000-tower-speaker-comparison-need-help-picking-contenders.html

And

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1437010/2-000-3-000-tower-speaker-comparison-need-help-picking-the-contenders-for-a-shootout

[FireGuy]

Well within your budget, look at the Axiom M80 Tower.  If you omit the custom wood veneer you've got enough for a sub and/or center.   Cost to performance ratio is insane. 

[es347]

Regarding speaker "shootouts" I unearthed this excerpt from a Harman Intl pamphlet.  It outlines the vagaries of speaker comparisons...and they are fraught with vagaries.  Try as you may there are so many variables it makes honest/objective evaluation problematic.  Throw in that pesky break-in time that varies from speaker to speaker...my VR5 Annies didn't start sounding like they do today until they had around 400 hours on them...and the problem is compounded.

1.  You need a way to switch between speakers quickly, as the auditory memory is only 3 seconds according to the book: Psychoacoustics, Fastl and Zwicker, Heidelberg Press, 1993.

2.  Each speaker needs to be level matched.  Every scientist, acoustician, and driver designer knows the Fletcher Munson curve: the loudest speaker always sounds the best, no matter if it is a worse speaker, with higher distortion and coloration. This is due to human hearing perception, so the loudest speakers must be resistor-attenuated to match the lowest speaker;

3.  The speakers MUST be placed exactly at the same place in the room; this requires a rotary turntable.  If this factor is not observed, each speaker will have a completely different frequency and phase response, as their path-length distances to the reflective boundaries (the walls) will not be equivalent;

4.  The “auditioner” must be very accurate and trained to tell the difference between “hyper sound” and “natural sound.”  This means that if a guy is predisposed to liking bass, he might like “boom” over tight bass, even though it is clearly inaccurate to the source material.  The same goes for the treble: certain reviewers love boosted treble, since they perceive this to offer more “detail” but then later wonder why they can’t listen to their favorite speakers for more than a few minutes at a time.  That is also why they play the music at very low volume levels, as their subconscious minds can’t tolerate the distortion.

NewHTbuyer...are you purchasing all 4 of these speaker prs. with the intention of keeping or planning to return the 3 "losers" after your shootout?  Sounds like a logistics nightmare IMHO.

[milford3]

+1 FireGuy on the Axiom M80's.  But you don't need a sub with these towers.  By the way, Brystons new speakers use Axiom drivers.  Very interesting.

[FireGuy]

+1 FireGuy on the Axiom M80's.  But you don't need a sub with these towers.  By the way, Brystons new speakers use Axiom drivers.  Very interesting.

Yes, that collaboration between Bryston and Axiom seems to be working out quite well during Bryston's initial launch.  Baseline speaker parameters (including drivers) are Axiom.  Would love to have someone A/B the M80's Vs. Model T.  Do the Model T's published "upgrades" worth the much added cost?  What does the Bryston name plate give you?    Does higher cost = better performance?  We do know this is NOT always the case.  Model T and M80 shootout would be quite interesting.

[Don_S]

I have to disagree with Harman Intl. on requirement #3.  I think each pair of speakers should be placed in their optimum position.

Regarding speaker "shootouts" I unearthed this excerpt from a Harman Intl pamphlet.  It outlines the vagaries of speaker comparisons...and they are fraught with vagaries.  Try as you may there are so many variables it makes honest/objective evaluation problematic.  Throw in that pesky break-in time that varies from speaker to speaker...my VR5 Annies didn't start sounding like they do today until they had around 400 hours on them...and the problem is compounded.

1.  You need a way to switch between speakers quickly, as the auditory memory is only 3 seconds according to the book: Psychoacoustics, Fastl and Zwicker, Heidelberg Press, 1993.

2.  Each speaker needs to be level matched.  Every scientist, acoustician, and driver designer knows the Fletcher Munson curve: the loudest speaker always sounds the best, no matter if it is a worse speaker, with higher distortion and coloration. This is due to human hearing perception, so the loudest speakers must be resistor-attenuated to match the lowest speaker;

3.  The speakers MUST be placed exactly at the same place in the room; this requires a rotary turntable.  If this factor is not observed, each speaker will have a completely different frequency and phase response, as their path-length distances to the reflective boundaries (the walls) will not be equivalent;

4.  The “auditioner” must be very accurate and trained to tell the difference between “hyper sound” and “natural sound.”  This means that if a guy is predisposed to liking bass, he might like “boom” over tight bass, even though it is clearly inaccurate to the source material.  The same goes for the treble: certain reviewers love boosted treble, since they perceive this to offer more “detail” but then later wonder why they can’t listen to their favorite speakers for more than a few minutes at a time.  That is also why they play the music at very low volume levels, as their subconscious minds can’t tolerate the distortion.

NewHTbuyer...are you purchasing all 4 of these speaker prs. with the intention of keeping or planning to return the 3 "losers" after your shootout?  Sounds like a logistics nightmare IMHO.

[Rclark]

.

[kernelbob]

I'm also an advocate of long term listening instead of quick A/B comparisons.  I've frequently found that what initially sounds better, may be less satisfying over the long haul.  A good example is a change that exaggerates high frequencies & transients.  I try to keep a changed component in place until I get a sense of the gestalt of the system.

[es347]

I have to disagree with Harman Intl. on requirement #3.  I think each pair of speakers should be placed in their optimum position.

I agree Don..

[es347]

Regarding speaker "shootouts" I unearthed this excerpt from a Harman Intl pamphlet.  It outlines the vagaries of speaker comparisons...and they are fraught with vagaries.  Try as you may there are so many variables it makes honest/objective evaluation problematic.  Throw in that pesky break-in time that varies from speaker to speaker...my VR5 Annies didn't start sounding like they do today until they had around 400 hours on them...and the problem is compounded.

1.  You need a way to switch between speakers quickly, as the auditory memory is only 3 seconds according to the book: Psychoacoustics, Fastl and Zwicker, Heidelberg Press, 1993.

2.  Each speaker needs to be level matched.  Every scientist, acoustician, and driver designer knows the Fletcher Munson curve: the loudest speaker always sounds the best, no matter if it is a worse speaker, with higher distortion and coloration. This is due to human hearing perception, so the loudest speakers must be resistor-attenuated to match the lowest speaker;

3.  The speakers MUST be placed exactly at the same place in the room; this requires a rotary turntable.  If this factor is not observed, each speaker will have a completely different frequency and phase response, as their path-length distances to the reflective boundaries (the walls) will not be equivalent;

4.  The “auditioner” must be very accurate and trained to tell the difference between “hyper sound” and “natural sound.”  This means that if a guy is predisposed to liking bass, he might like “boom” over tight bass, even though it is clearly inaccurate to the source material.  The same goes for the treble: certain reviewers love boosted treble, since they perceive this to offer more “detail” but then later wonder why they can’t listen to their favorite speakers for more than a few minutes at a time.  That is also why they play the music at very low volume levels, as their subconscious minds can’t tolerate the distortion.

NewHTbuyer...are you purchasing all 4 of these speaker prs. with the intention of keeping or planning to return the 3 "losers" after your shootout?  Sounds like a logistics nightmare IMHO.

NewHTbuyer...that question was not of a rhetorical nature.  So I repeat...are you purchasing all 4 of these speaker prs. with the intention of keeping or planning to return the 3 "losers" after your shootout?  It's a fair question..

[NewHTbuyer]

NewHTbuyer...that question was not of a rhetorical nature.  So I repeat...are you purchasing all 4 of these speaker prs. with the intention of keeping or planning to return the 3 "losers" after your shootout?  It's a fair question..

I am planning to audition all four sets at once and send back the three losers, or maybe sell them to other local enthusiasts.  You say that it sounds like a logistic nightmare..do you have a better alternative?  Rent out Harman's room with the spinning platform?  I can't tell for crap when I listen in a store.  Sales guy hanging around, different rooms, I have a $500 receiver and stores usually have $10,000 McIntosh amps setup in their showrooms.  The only way I see how to do it is get the speakers in my own room.

Thanks for the post re: the issues comparing speakers.  On an earlier thread when I was researching my receiver, someone else brought up those issues and all the difficulties involved.  Obviously, I don't have a rotating platform, nor do I know how to level match them beyond an spl meter (I know, not accurate enough). I do have a speaker selector at least, so I can rapidly switch speakers.   On one hand, I guess that makes it a fruitless exercise, but here is how I think about it.  I am not trying to PROVE that A is better than B, ie like in a double blind study.   I am merely trying to find the speaker I LIKE the best, totally subjective.  For example, maybe I can prove that my homemade organic burger is better than McDonalds, but you may like a Big Mac better anyway, and thus you would be happier with the Big Mac.  What I plan to do is first off, break them all in a bit.  Then, spend quite a bit of time with each in whichever spot sounds the best for that set.  Narrow down my music to a few tracks, as suggested above.  Then, I don't plan to have all four lined up at the same time, because one set would be much closer to the side walls.  What I plan to do is only have two sets going at once when I A/B compare, and really see which I like better.  For example, VR-22 vs. Phil2.  Then VR vs. Ascend, etc. etc.  hopefully, by doing that I can compile my listening impressions when they are alone in prime positions and when compared to each other to arrive at the one I like the best.

As far as the Axiom recommendation, I have read quite a bit of varied opinions about them.  It seems like they have fallen behind lately, at least from what some people have posted.  It seems like they had many fans but have not updated or innovated much lately.  Anyway, they were not really ever on my short list, right or wrong, even from the beginning.  There are a lot of good brands at my price range, I would love to hear them all, but getting it down to four was tough enough.  Legacy, Kef, Tannoy, Focal, Gallo....lots that I would love to hear.