[Zero]

es357

1.   Remember what a tiger sounds like? Or an airliner?  Or a car horn?  Or a train?  Or lightning?  Could you recognize the voice of a loved one despite having not talked to them in say, 3 seconds? I think you know where I'm going with this...     That 3 second stuff is nonsense. 

2.  Agreed.  Level matching is a must.  Resistor-attenuation however, is not.

3.  The secret sauce behind shootouts has more to do with understanding the fundamentals behind each products design, than ensuring that every speaker is placed in exactly the same spot. I mean, you COULD slap everything in the same space, taking out a pin, do a swap here and there, and then scribbling down gibberish. But that's all the notes will ultimately be.  Heh.  This shootout stuff is ALL about understanding the gear that you're working with.  For example;  Some speakers are designed to perform their best when faced straight out into a room (Totem).  Other's perform their best when toed in (most Martin Logan hybrids).  Some speakers sound their best when positioned within close proximity to one another, while others strut their stuff when placed more towards the corners of a room.  Anyways, I can go on and on, but the point is to never intentionally give *ANY* product a distinct disadvantage during an evaluation.  You want to do all that you can to get the best outta that design.  And to do that, you need to understand the basic fundamentals that drive each and every design that you're working with.  But eh? Why go through all of that shiz when you could just take the easy way out by droppin' and ploppin'?  heh..

4.  Eh.  I think all a guy (or gal) needs to do is to simply be upfront about their tastes / what they like / what they don't like.  Your hearing prowess doesn't have to go toe to toe with a bat in order to riff about what you hear, what you like and why.  Besides, it's not like this review will be featured in the front-cover of Stereophile.  This is a guy who's going to take a handful of products for a spin and then riff about what he heard'.   Nothing more.  Nothing less.  And since it's apparent that his reference point will be a $500 receiver - and God knows what the source will be -  I think it's fair to say that this should be treated as what it is..     A guy playing with toys, and talkin about his experiences with em'. 

[JackD201]

Should be a fun time,  It's a hobby so it should be fun! 

I leave the ABX workouts to the guys on Hydrogen Audio. If they ABXed as much as the TRXed they'd all have 8 packs.   

Okay, before I get jumped by the objectivists, let me say that I do believe in blind testing. I have an educational background in Marketing with a specialization on Behavioral Science. I breathe statistics. In an informal evaluation such as this one, like someone mentioned earlier, giving each candidate a fair shot (mental honesty) should be enough.

[NewHTbuyer]

es357

1.   Remember what a tiger sounds like? Or an airliner?  Or a car horn?  Or a train?  Or lightning?  Could you recognize the voice of a loved one despite having not talked to them in say, 3 seconds? I think you know where I'm going with this...     That 3 second stuff is nonsense. 

2.  Agreed.  Level matching is a must.  Resistor-attenuation however, is not.

3.  The secret sauce behind shootouts has more to do with understanding the fundamentals behind each products design, than ensuring that every speaker is placed in exactly the same spot. I mean, you COULD slap everything in the same space, taking out a pin, do a swap here and there, and then scribbling down gibberish. But that's all the notes will ultimately be.  Heh.  This shootout stuff is ALL about understanding the gear that you're working with.  For example;  Some speakers are designed to perform their best when faced straight out into a room (Totem).  Other's perform their best when toed in (most Martin Logan hybrids).  Some speakers sound their best when positioned within close proximity to one another, while others strut their stuff when placed more towards the corners of a room.  Anyways, I can go on and on, but the point is to never intentionally give *ANY* product a distinct disadvantage during an evaluation.  You want to do all that you can to get the best outta that design.  And to do that, you need to understand the basic fundamentals that drive each and every design that you're working with.  But eh? Why go through all of that shiz when you could just take the easy way out by droppin' and ploppin'?  heh..

4.  Eh.  I think all a guy (or gal) needs to do is to simply be upfront about their tastes / what they like / what they don't like.  Your hearing prowess doesn't have to go toe to toe with a bat in order to riff about what you hear, what you like and why.  Besides, it's not like this review will be featured in the front-cover of Stereophile.  This is a guy who's going to take a handful of products for a spin and then riff about what he heard'.   Nothing more.  Nothing less.  And since it's apparent that his reference point will be a $500 receiver - and God knows what the source will be -  I think it's fair to say that this should be treated as what it is..     A guy playing with toys, and talkin about his experiences with em'.

Although the reason I am doing this is to end up with a new pair of speakers I really like, probably a bigger reason is to just enjoy myself while sampling some very good speakers.   I actually did the same with my latest TV purchase...got an HDMI splitter and bought a Toshiba and a Samsung and did the head to head thing for a couple weeks until I picked the one I liked best.  I really enjoyed that.  I fully understand that I am not a professional reviewer, so yeah, I agree, whatever I post will be just my personal experience with the products.  Maybe that will help someone else narrow down their choices.  Plus, I am going to open my house to some other audio enthusiasts who are interested in listening to good speakers, so I figure that is a cool thing to do.  As I have researched this endeavor, others have offered to demo their systems for me.  Kind of pay it forward, if you know what I mean.

Oh, one guy who is interested in coming might bring an Odyssey Candela preamp/Wyred4Sound amp combo....so I might get a chance to see how much better $3,000 of electronics sounds compared to my poor $500 receiver.  I am interested to see how much of a difference I can hear with better electronics.  If it is noticeable, well, then obviously down the road I will probably upgrade.  I also do mean to get some room treatments, but I have not had time to explore those yet.

[es347]

Interesting how this VSA circle has become an ad campaign for speakers mfd. in China..

[NewHTbuyer]

Interesting how this VSA circle has become an ad campaign for speakers mfd. in China..

Not sure the point of this post.  Ascends and Phil's are made in the US.  Also, iPhones and iPads are made in China, so made in China does not necessarily mean it is bad.   
Ad campaign?  Ok.... Not sure how you arrived at that.

[SundayNiagara]

Interesting how this VSA circle has become an ad campaign for speakers mfd. in China..

Is it time to lock this thread?

[Delacroix]

Folks -- I think there is general interest in the OP's quest to hear speakers for himself in his home and to report his findings. Let's stay on track with this, remembering that this is a VS owners' circle and that the quest is going to be covered in detail in other forums. I am interested in the experiences any speaker purchaser has with home trials but this particular forum is about Von Schweikert speakers. No doubt there are many other speakers we could suggest, made in many different countries,  and we all recognize rooms matter but these are somewhat secondary issues - this is about one buyer's experiences.  In as much as a pair of VR22s are in the mix here, I'd be happy to continue learning about NewHTBuyer's impressions when he gets them. If the delivery and timing gods align, this could be a very interesting read. 

Best

Patrick

[monkuboy]

I'm curious - any results to be posted from the shootout?

[Rclark]

It has been a while, hasn't it. Very curious about the VR-22 and impressions against these other speakers. I'd totally forgotten about the SVS.

[SundayNiagara]

Methinks someone put a stop to this!

[Delacroix]

I don't believe there is any conspiracy or mystery here. HtBuyer pointed us earlier to threads on other forums where he was documenting his process in detail. I have not read through them completely through but I believe that for logistical reasons, the VR22s and some other speakers ended up not being part of his final comparison set. See for example:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/loudspeakers/82334-%242-000-3-000-tower-speaker-comparison-need-help-picking-contenders.html

[es347]

Oh boy here we go again    I still find it upsetting that someone would take advantage of several speaker mfrs' trial period offers and openly talk about it on a forum.  Boo hiss 

[SundayNiagara]

It sure looks to me like it didn't happen.  Given the quality level of the other equipment involved, I'm happy.

[sebrof]

It sure looks to me like it didn't happen.  Given the quality level of the other equipment involved, I'm happy.

It happened, just not with all of the original speakers he planned on. Follow the link the OP provided.

Oh boy here we go again    I still find it upsetting that someone would take advantage of several speaker mfrs' trial period offers and openly talk about it on a forum.  Boo hiss 

I THINK, from skimming the other thread on the other forum, that he had buy-in from the manufacturers but I'm not sure. It could explain why he ended up evaluating different speakers than he originally planned.
I agree with you though, if I were planning something like this I would make sure that each manufacturer knew what I was planning.

[SundayNiagara]

It happened, just not with all of the original speakers he planned on. Follow the link the OP provided.
 I THINK, from skimming the other thread on the other forum, that he had buy-in from the manufacturers but I'm not sure. It could explain why he ended up evaluating different speakers than he originally planned.
I agree with you though, if I were planning something like this I would make sure that each manufacturer knew what I was planning.

If he didn't have the speakers he originally listed, then thankfully, it never happened.  I used to work at a Von Schweikert dealer and would hate to see his products dumped on.

[JackD201]

It's so much simpler over here. All the major distributors save two are in the same metropolis. Add to that the fact that all of us are friends. When a serious buyer asks if he wants to A/B/C/D loudspeakers it turns into a party  At any rate, what you will not see is the dealer of the selected speaker tooting his own horn about how his product (insert verb here) the others.

When you sell speakers you have no control over the buyer's tastes nor do you have any control over his associated components. As such none of us are dumb enough to even suggest any outright superiority. That sport goes into the main showroom systems and at shows where we do have absolute control. Still, this remains friendly, Friendly, FRIENDLY. We even help each other out. Last year, I borrowed power cables from one dealer (VR-44s don't accept giant hospital grade plugs) and to pay it forward lent bass traps to another dealer. We also regularly loan each other gear so we are all more abreast of what's out on the market.

I guess in the US it can be frustrating in this day and age with more and more reliance on the net. Personally I wouldn't want to lend out anything for a shootout if I wasn't present to make sure that my products are set up in such a way as to get a really fair shake. Every product has got it's unique "thang". VSA speakers because of their dispersion characteristics for example require a lot less toe in than many competing loudspeakers. You can also set them farther apart than usual, and lastly, most models don't need to be as far out into the rooms as other makes. Yet, I see a lot of pics on the net where all this is done, I'm guessing because some old habits die hard. I've also seen it with existing clients that move. They call us in to tune up their systems and we come to find VRs and UNIs pointing straight at their listening positions. Should that happen in a shootout the VSAs would not be showing what they are really capable of. The same would go for DALIs and Revels. Just two that immediately come to mind.

[Rclark]

,

[James Romeyn]

I have Ncores too but for some reason I think they're made in Europe.

Asian-sourced.