[Nuance]

Frankly, I'm torn on whether I'll keep the PL or not.  While I love pretty much everything about the presentation of tubes, there is a change to the bass that I'm not sure I like.  No free lunch either way I guess

I can totally relate to that.  The Butler 2250 I had did so many things right, but the bass became slow sounding; it was just thick, muddy and left me unsatisfied.  Ultimately I had to sell it.  I've vowed to never use tubes in an amplifier again (they are limited to the preamp or DAC for me).

[Bigfishhk]

I've gone the full tube route with the ST's and a sub.  Right now I'm using a PrimaLuna P5 amp with a Van Alstine T8 pre, a SMS-1 and a Rythmik F12 sub. 

Frankly, I'm torn on whether I'll keep the PL or not.  While I love pretty much everything about the presentation of tubes, there is a change to the bass that I'm not sure I like.  No free lunch either way I guess

thanks for feedback. it's a slightly more complex set up than I want to manage I think but I will research it anyhow.  Are you thinking of switching out of tubes cos of bass response? What was the change you mentioned?
tom

[Bigfishhk]

I can totally relate to that.  The Butler 2250 I had did so many things right, but the bass became slow sounding; it was just thick, muddy and left me unsatisfied.  Ultimately I had to sell it.  I've vowed to never use tubes in an amplifier again (they are limited to the preamp or DAC for me).

Nuance,
on my kind of budget, forgetting tubes for a moment, what would you suggest? I am looking for more musicality, 3 d soundstage, air in the presentation. I also want option to X over at 80hz. I have two integrated amps (Krell KAV 400xi, Anthem 225 int). Both are good and similar in sound but not quite there. Also no bass management.
 I will sell one of them, probably the Krell if I go this route.

I considered AVA new components (hybrid pre amp, SS amp), but I don't think their Pre do bass management. Plus would require extra funds.

If you were me, what would you go for with about $1500 approx? or do you think that it requires a bigger budget to improve on the components I have?

TOm

[Kinger]

Yep, honestly I'd prefer a simple 2 channel setup, but after hearing the ST's paired with an EQ'd sub, I think it might be hard for me to go back to a strict 2.0 setup even if I were to purchase a Salk speaker that was more capable in the low end than the ST's like the SCST's or HT2-TL's.  Only way I'd know for sure is to get a pair of SCST's or HT2-TL's into my room though and give it a listen which I don't see happening for a good while as I'd have to sell my current ST's plus the sub just to fund such a purchase.  Then if I got the new speakers and didn't like them without a sub I'd be wishing I had not sold my previous one.  Talk about a vicioius circle 

Yes, I'm considering removing the tube amp and going back to SS for the difference in the way the bass sounds.  The tube pre will be staying as I like what that did for my sound when I added it to my SS amp originally. 

As for the difference in bass between the two units, as Nuance mentioned the bass just doesn't sound as sharp or textured as it did with my SS amp.  I don't consider myself a bass freak or anything, but apparently I do like to have it presented in a certain way.  It's going to be a hard decision though as the tube amp really brought out some great tone in the midrange (David Gilmore's guitar for example is just heavenly) and a sweet 3D type presentation in soundstaging.  Part of me says I should listen to the Jim Salk mantra where he says the heart of the music is where the midrange is and keep the tube amp because I obviously like what it does for that.  The other part of me says I can't live without my bass presented in a way I was more accustomed to with my SS amp.

[roscoeiii]

+1 on the Rogue suggestion for a tube amp. Does not have the weaknesses associated with tube amps with my speakers in my system (Von Schweikert VR-4s). But bass will also depend on things like how well the damping factor of an amp (any amp) matches up with the drivers you are using.

I'd also suggest looking into a DSPeaker Dual Core 2.0. In addition to DSP (up to 500Hz) and a digital EQ, it has a DAC, an analog input, and analog volume control capabilities so it can be used as a preamp. Very versatile and can even handle issues of delays between subs and mains. RCA and XLR outputs. A very cool piece of equipment.  If you don't have a dealer nearby, Tweek Geek sells them and has both an audition and 30 day return policy, so you can try it out in your own system.

[Atlplasma]

I have no idea, actually.  I know some fellas that use them and like them, but I honestly don't know if they add delay.

I'd like to add the Parasound 2100 preamp to the list of options.  It has a high pass and low pass, bass management and HT bypass.  Another option is to look into the FMODs, which roll off the speaker's response at a specific frequency.  They don't act as a crossover, but more like a crossover simulator.  If the speakers start rolling off at say 70Hz at a 12dB slope, that'll help them blend with a subwoofer.

http://www.parts-express.com/term/fmod?srch=fmod

Hi guys.

Can I jump in with some questions as well? I recently added an old sub (M&K V1250THX) into my stereo setup (Dodd buffer, Ncore monos, Bifrost DAC, and SongTower STs). I've been considering inserting some sort of base management to avoid overloading the speakers. My M&K user manager mentioned using a particular high pass filter for this, and I can buy one off of ebay for about $75. This is a passive system without any room correction.

As sometimes happens, I've been finding out about other options, like using the Velodyne SMS. But I noticed the comment above about delay. I've also looked at the FMOD but which one to use in this situation.

Now, I'm feeling a little confused about how to proceed.

[roscoeiii]

DSPeaker Dual Core.

Hi guys.

Can I jump in with some questions as well? I recently added an old sub (M&K V1250THX) into my stereo setup (Dodd buffer, Ncore monos, Bifrost DAC, and SongTower STs). I've been considering inserting some sort of base management to avoid overloading the speakers. My M&K user manager mentioned using a particular high pass filter for this, and I can buy one off of ebay for about $75. This is a passive system without any room correction.

As sometimes happens, I've been finding out about other options, like using the Velodyne SMS. But I noticed the comment above about delay. I've also looked at the FMOD but which one to use in this situation.

Now, I'm feeling a little confused about how to proceed.

[Atlplasma]

DSPeaker Dual Core.

Price is an ouch. The AVSforum guys seem to like the DSPeaker Anti-Mode 8033C Subwoofer EQ. It's not balanced, but a lot easier on the pocketbook. 

[roscoeiii]

But it also has a DAC (I found the DAC to be nearly indistinguishable from the Schiit Gungnir), and could even be used as a preamp (it even has analog volume control).

Yes, if you are just looking for something just for the bass, then their lower priced unit would also work.

And again, you have the option to audition and try it out in your system. If it doesn't seem worth it, then send it back.

[Nuance]

Nuance,
on my kind of budget, forgetting tubes for a moment, what would you suggest? I am looking for more musicality, 3 d soundstage, air in the presentation. I also want option to X over at 80hz. I have two integrated amps (Krell KAV 400xi, Anthem 225 int). Both are good and similar in sound but not quite there. Also no bass management.
 I will sell one of them, probably the Krell if I go this route.

I considered AVA new components (hybrid pre amp, SS amp), but I don't think their Pre do bass management. Plus would require extra funds.

If you were me, what would you go for with about $1500 approx? or do you think that it requires a bigger budget to improve on the components I have?

TOm

If we're forgoing tubes, then the only options I am aware of are from Parasound (the Classic 2100 preamp and Halo P7) and Emotiva.  I have my own opinions on which company I'd prefer to purchase from, but I won't push those on you.  I will say that I like my 2100 for what it is/does, and it is easy to use.  If you want to get a tube preamp this entire scenario changes, but it is still very doable without degrading sound quality (well, at least in my opinion).  This is where the FMODs come into play, as well as a separate subwoofer EQ (see below for a more thorough explanation).

Hi guys.

Can I jump in with some questions as well? I recently added an old sub (M&K V1250THX) into my stereo setup (Dodd buffer, Ncore monos, Bifrost DAC, and SongTower STs). I've been considering inserting some sort of base management to avoid overloading the speakers. My M&K user manager mentioned using a particular high pass filter for this, and I can buy one off of ebay for about $75. This is a passive system without any room correction.

As sometimes happens, I've been finding out about other options, like using the Velodyne SMS. But I noticed the comment above about delay. I've also looked at the FMOD but which one to use in this situation.

Now, I'm feeling a little confused about how to proceed.

Nice system! 

I have a friend that uses the SMS-1 for exactly this, and he says he hears no adverse effects sound quality wise.  I also have another friend who tried the SMS-1 and said it did negatively effect sound quality, so to each their own on that one.   Personally, I would do this (this is exactly what I plan to do when I purchase a tube preamp):

- Purchase those FMODS, which employ a 12dB slope into the signal path.  Your amplifiers impedance will determine which frequency actually gets affected, so simply purchasing the 50Hz or 70Hz FMODs doesn't necessarily mean that's where the filter will be applied.  You'll need to research this to help determine which version to purchase. 
- Use an external EQ for the subs, but don't run the speakers through it, as that is what the FMODs are for.  I'd highly recommend something like the MiniDSP, Behringer 1124p or SMS-1, but again, this will only be for subwoofer EQ - don't connect the speakers to it because the FMODs will already be alleviating the strain on them kind of like a high pass.
- If you need HT bypass capabilities, your preamp needs to have a second set of full range outputs and a L&R channel bypass.  You will then purchase a switchbox from radioshack and connect the second set of outputs on the preamp to the inputs on the switchbox, then run that to the subwoofer preout on your receiver.  Finally, you'll connect the L&R bypass from your preamp to the L&R preouts on the receiver.  When you watch movies you simply activate the switchbox to input B rather than A (A for music, B for movies), or you can purchase one of the auto-sensing switchboxes that will sense the subwoofer signal and automatically switch for you.

As you can tell, things get much more complicated if you're trying to integrate a 2-channel system (2.x actually) into a HT system.  But if you're just trying to integrate a subwoofer into a 2-channel system it is very doable using the methodology above. 

I hope that helps.

[Atlplasma]

If we're forgoing tubes, then the only options I am aware of are from Parasound (the Classic 2100 preamp and Halo P7) and Emotiva.  I have my own opinions on which company I'd prefer to purchase from, but I won't push those on you.  I will say that I like my 2100 for what it is/does, and it is easy to use.  If you want to get a tube preamp this entire scenario changes, but it is still very doable without degrading sound quality (well, at least in my opinion).  This is where the FMODs come into play, as well as a separate subwoofer EQ (see below for a more thorough explanation).

Nice system! 

I have a friend that uses the SMS-1 for exactly this, and he says he hears no adverse effects sound quality wise.  I also have another friend who tried the SMS-1 and said it did negatively effect sound quality, so to each their own on that one.   Personally, I would do this (this is exactly what I plan to do when I purchase a tube preamp):

- Purchase those FMODS, which employ a 12dB slope into the signal path.  Your amplifiers impedance will determine which frequency actually gets affected, so simply purchasing the 50Hz or 70Hz FMODs doesn't necessarily mean that's where the filter will be applied.  You'll need to research this to help determine which version to purchase. 
- Use an external EQ for the subs, but don't run the speakers through it, as that is what the FMODs are for.  I'd highly recommend something like the MiniDSP, Behringer 1124p or SMS-1, but again, this will only be for subwoofer EQ - don't connect the speakers to it because the FMODs will already be alleviating the strain on them kind of like a high pass.
- If you need HT bypass capabilities, your preamp needs to have a second set of full range outputs and a L&R channel bypass.  You will then purchase a switchbox from radioshack and connect the second set of outputs on the preamp to the inputs on the switchbox, then run that to the subwoofer preout on your receiver.  Finally, you'll connect the L&R bypass from your preamp to the L&R preouts on the receiver.  When you watch movies you simply activate the switchbox to input B rather than A (A for music, B for movies), or you can purchase one of the auto-sensing switchboxes that will sense the subwoofer signal and automatically switch for you.

As you can tell, things get much more complicated if you're trying to integrate a 2-channel system (2.x actually) into a HT system.  But if you're just trying to integrate a subwoofer into a 2-channel system it is very doable using the methodology above. 

I hope that helps.

Thanks, Nuance.

Great suggestions. I'll have to see what the Ncore folks have to say about the FMODs. The DM input impedance is 104 kohms.

[Austin08]

Not exactly sure if this is what he means, but if you are playing 24-bit music, with a 32-bit digital volume control you would have 8 bits or 48dB of possible attenuation.  Any further attenuation will affect the dynamic range, and if the analog output is fairly high, you may not have enough available attenuation for very low level listening without affecting dynamic range.
 
Steve

Steve, thanks for pointing that out.

The Oppos rca and xlr output are rate 2.1 - 4.2 Vrms. On top of that due to the volume revolution of
the dac is  1/64 = 0.015625 dB but Oppo give us a volume version to fit within the 0-100 volume scale. So even at the minimum volume ”1” sound will be louder than one may expected.

I tried to use the Oppo as a preamp and did some late night listening. (just to test out its function) I  that though the volume steps are alright. I got no complaint from family members even my Oppo volume was at ”15” at some point.

[Gzerro]

Integrating subs into a traditional two channel system is a challenge. There are so many ways to do it. Nuance's post just above I think outlines your options really well, and the Oppo 105 as preamp mentioned previously would also work. I think most of the worthwhile options have been mentioned, but just thought I would share my experiences.

I basically had your same requirements, but in an 5.1 integrated HT/Music system. I also still spin vinyl, so any option that didn't have a 100% analog option was out of the picture.

I ended up with the following:
Sources: Oppo BDP-93, Sonos (similar to Squeezebox), VPI Scout turntable, PS3, Cable TV
Parasound P7 Premp (The Parasound Classic 2100 is very similar for a stereo option, and in your price range very affordable)
Parasound A52 Amplifier (Could be replaced with a tube amp in your system)
AVR - Denon 4311 (Used strictly as an HDMI switch except for TV and Games - this AVR is not worthy of the STs for critical listening)
Salk Songtower 5.2 system with dual 15" subs

The Parasound  handles the crossover for for 2 channel sources. For 5 channel sources the Oppo provides the bass management.

My biggest challenge was getting the subs setup properly with no EQ. Adding the second sub helped alot, but it still took much experimentation with placement in order to achieve a flat frequency response. If you don't have a way to measure your room and alot of patience I would recommend an SMS-1, DSPeaker Dual Core 2.0, or minidsp type solution. A well integrated sub including EQ if needed sounds amazingly better than just plopping the sub down in a convenient spot.

Best of Luck!

Tom

[Bigfishhk]

Integrating subs into a traditional two channel system is a challenge. There are so many ways to do it. Nuance's post just above I think outlines your options really well, and the Oppo 105 as preamp mentioned previously would also work. I think most of the worthwhile options have been mentioned, but just thought I would share my experiences.

I basically had your same requirements, but in an 5.1 integrated HT/Music system. I also still spin vinyl, so any option that didn't have a 100% analog option was out of the picture.

I ended up with the following:
Sources: Oppo BDP-93, Sonos (similar to Squeezebox), VPI Scout turntable, PS3, Cable TV
Parasound P7 Premp (The Parasound Classic 2100 is very similar for a stereo option, and in your price range very affordable)
Parasound A52 Amplifier (Could be replaced with a tube amp in your system)
AVR - Denon 4311 (Used strictly as an HDMI switch except for TV and Games - this AVR is not worthy of the STs for critical listening)
Salk Songtower 5.2 system with dual 15" subs

The Parasound  handles the crossover for for 2 channel sources. For 5 channel sources the Oppo provides the bass management.

My biggest challenge was getting the subs setup properly with no EQ. Adding the second sub helped alot, but it still took much experimentation with placement in order to achieve a flat frequency response. If you don't have a way to measure your room and alot of patience I would recommend an SMS-1, DSPeaker Dual Core 2.0, or minidsp type solution. A well integrated sub including EQ if needed sounds amazingly better than just plopping the sub down in a convenient spot.


Best of Luck!

Tom

Very solid advice here thanks Tom.
I am considering the parasound plus a tube amp or possibly hybrid amp. D you think that the oppo 105, forgettingprice andl it's other uses, would be as good as a pre amp with bass management as the parasound?


Part of me is tempted to get oppo to use as Dac, blu ray/cd player and pre amp in one. Would then sell my EE DAC and integrated amp.

I only have one sub and no space for more or very decent options for re positioning. If x over at 80hz doesn't work then I will revert to 50hz and running song towers full band.

Tom

[Gzerro]

I only have one sub and no space for more or very decent options for re positioning. If x over at 80hz doesn't work then I will revert to 50hz and running song towers full band.

Based on your limitation on placement, if it was me I would start with a standalone bass management system with EQ such as the SMS-1, Antimode 8033, minidsp DSPeaker Dual Core 2.0 etc. Achieving a flat frequency response in the 20hz-200Hz region is not likely to happen by chance, and really makes a huge improvement in bass impact, definition and clarity. I don't have specific experience with these tools, but they all have received good press from what I have seen.

In addition to getting some EQ capabilities, it also means that you can do whatever you want for source, preamp, and amplifier so you aren't restricted to a very narrow set of options that have bass management capabilities. The only reason I didn't go this route was my (probably irrational) desire to keep a 100% analog option and still use my subs.

RE: the Oppo 105 as preamp  - I really can't say how it would do as a preamp as my BDP-93 isn't nearly as advanced as the new BPD-105. Theoretically it should work and would give you a means to crossover to the sub, but it has no EQ capabilities which I why I would lean first toward the other solutions.

This is just my opinion. Alot of others here have tons more hands on experience than I do with these various tools. Based on the research I did while setting up my system that would be my path.

Good luck!

Tom

[Bigfishhk]

Based on your limitation on placement, if it was me I would start with a standalone bass management system with EQ such as the SMS-1, Antimode 8033, minidsp DSPeaker Dual Core 2.0 etc. Achieving a flat frequency response in the 20hz-200Hz region is not likely to happen by chance, and really makes a huge improvement in bass impact, definition and clarity. I don't have specific experience with these tools, but they all have received good press from what I have seen.


Tom

One last question.. Do I need the above eq components if my sub already has PEQ settings ? I really haven,t understood well how to use them
Thanks
T

[Gzerro]

One last question.. Do I need the above eq components if my sub already has PEQ settings ? I really haven,t understood well how to use them
Thanks
T

The PEQ that is built into your sub can help smooth a single frequency peak. For example my room has node that results in a bass boost of about 12db 65Hz. I use the PEQ to flatten that out. It is pretty useful if you are lucky and have a pretty flat frequency response in your room to start with.

The limitations compared to something like the SMS-1 etc are 1) you can only fix a single frequency, and 2) you have to measure your room and determine on your own what needs to be fixed, then determine the correct settings to fix it. This is time consuming and requires more effort than most people want to go through. Even after going through all the work you may find that you need 3 or 4 or 10 adjustments to get a flat response. Also, if you decide to move things around you have to start from scratch and do it all over - a real pain.

The tools mentioned above use a setup microphone and have processors that can figure out how to fix the problem all on their own, which may include several adjustments. They are easy to use, fast, and require little knowledge to operate - just what you want so you can get back to listening to music!

[Bigfishhk]

The PEQ that is built into your sub can help smooth a single frequency peak. For example my room has node that results in a bass boost of about 12db 65Hz. I use the PEQ to flatten that out. It is pretty useful if you are lucky and have a pretty flat frequency response in your room to start with.

The limitations compared to something like the SMS-1 etc are 1) you can only fix a single frequency, and 2) you have to measure your room and determine on your own what needs to be fixed, then determine the correct settings to fix it. This is time consuming and requires more effort than most people want to go through. Even after going through all the work you may find that you need 3 or 4 or 10 adjustments to get a flat response. Also, if you decide to move things around you have to start from scratch and do it all over - a real pain.

The tools mentioned above use a setup microphone and have processors that can figure out how to fix the problem all on their own, which may include several adjustments. They are easy to use, fast, and require little knowledge to operate - just what you want so you can get back to listening to music!

Got it. Thanks for explaining.' Easy to use', now that's for me for sure.
T

[ricardojoa]

Got it. Thanks for explaining.' Easy to use', now that's for me for sure.
T

I have a suggestion which i think i eventually will go.
Why not  try to shoot an email to minidsp. They have 2.1 processor that is supposed to work to integrated with subs. It has an eq on both for the front and sub, and delay as well. I know you my not want you analong stuff to be processed, but you could ask them if that particular 2.1 system can work on the sub alone. That way you will have the option to fully use the 2.1 system or just on the subs. One thing i find it important with integrating with subs is phase. Most of the times, you will need delay on the front over the subs. So the delay/phase on the sub doensnt help much. Also the minisdsp is a lot cheaper then the SMs1.

[Bigfishhk]

I have a suggestion which i think i eventually will go.
Why not  try to shoot an email to minidsp. They have 2.1 processor that is supposed to work to integrated with subs. It has an eq on both for the front and sub, and delay as well. I know you my not want you analong stuff to be processed, but you could ask them if that particular 2.1 system can work on the sub alone. That way you will have the option to fully use the 2.1 system or just on the subs. One thing i find it important with integrating with subs is phase. Most of the times, you will need delay on the front over the subs. So the delay/phase on the sub doensnt help much. Also the minisdsp is a lot cheaper then the SMs1.

I will look into them too. Prices certainly better. Hope they work with MAC,s.
Thanks