Why isnt omni directional speaker popular?

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ricardojoa

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Why isnt omni directional speaker popular?
« on: 23 Nov 2012, 09:01 am »
Just curious why is almost very speaker made is front firing? Why isnt omni populars, regarless of women?  :green:
« Last Edit: 23 Nov 2012, 01:21 pm by ricardojoa »

AJinFLA

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Re: Why isnt omni directional speaker popular?
« Reply #1 on: 23 Nov 2012, 01:06 pm »
Women.

Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Why isnt omni directional speaker popular?
« Reply #2 on: 23 Nov 2012, 01:54 pm »
I'm not sure, although one of these days I'll build some for my rear channel drivers.
Neat concept though, maybe they're just too "odd" for most folks?

Bob

ricardojoa

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Re: Why isnt omni directional speaker popular?
« Reply #3 on: 23 Nov 2012, 02:05 pm »
Decware reintroduce their hr1, which has the midbass and tweeter forward firing bleding with a omni driver on top and passive radiator for tuning the bass. I really think is a really cool design. A design like this takes effort and experiments. At almost 4900 i thought they are a bit expensive considering the cost of the forward drivers which arent super expensive as some other $4000+ speakers.
Too bad is that there isnt alot info on this.

michael green MGA

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Re: Why isnt omni directional speaker popular?
« Reply #4 on: 23 Nov 2012, 02:16 pm »
I think it's a design philosophy that will come full circle again as there are a few driver changes made. The industry has a way of moving on to the latest greatest and forgets some of the cool things that got it here. Personally I like listening to true omni directionals.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Why isnt omni directional speaker popular?
« Reply #5 on: 23 Nov 2012, 02:36 pm »
Because the all omnis are expensive, even the fullrange Ohm Walsh were priced in excess of $7000, now moded and rebate to $6500.
http://www.ohmacoustics.com/productline.cfm

AJinFLA

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Re: Why isnt omni directional speaker popular?
« Reply #6 on: 23 Nov 2012, 02:39 pm »
Decware reintroduce their hr1, which has the midbass and tweeter forward firing bleding with a omni driver on top and passive radiator for tuning the bass. I really think is a really cool design.
Richard, this highlights the problem well. The physical really real world definition of an "omni" vs what the market perceives as "omni". What you described above is anything but "omni", except at certain frequencies (can't find any specs), which, if low, describes about 95% of all speakers. That would make my M1 an "omni" also. :wink:
True omnis (and dipoles, etc) don't exist, though speaker designs described as such do. Any speaker "omni" directional at HF (say >1khz) will mandate placement minimally 3' away from walls to provide sufficient reflected delay time and prevent spatial smearing. Hence their non-popularity. They have to be well out into the room and that proves domestically unacceptable in most households.

cheers,

AJ

mcgsxr

Re: Why isnt omni directional speaker popular?
« Reply #7 on: 23 Nov 2012, 02:41 pm »
Leaving WAF out of it, I think it comes down to room shape and space.  All other things being equal, omni's like more breathing room from rear and side walls, and most don't want their speakers out in the room as it is, with standard speakers.

Energy and Mirage made many omni speakers in the 90's, I have a set of their bookshelf omni's (Mirage Omni 60) in the basement right now.  T

hey were a nice affordable solution (I think new they ran $500, I borrowed them off a friend) when I moved away from OB last year.

opnly bafld

Re: Why isnt omni directional speaker popular?
« Reply #8 on: 23 Nov 2012, 02:43 pm »
Decware reintroduce their hr1, which has the midbass and tweeter forward firing blending with an omni driver on top and passive radiator for tuning the bass. I really think is a really cool design. A design like this takes effort and experiments. At almost 4900 i thought they are a bit expensive considering the cost of the forward drivers which arent super expensive as some other $4000+ speakers.
Too bad is that there isn't a lot info on this.


Great speakers, I think the price also reflects the labor involved in building the cabinet (EDIT the driver on top is rebuilt into a radial) and the quality of sound.
They had been being sold as Turning Point Audio* HR1, now called The Zen Omni, not a lot of these out there, but those that have them love 'em. As mentioned make sure you can place them a few feet from the walls.

*Decware speaker builder and designer of some models
« Last Edit: 23 Nov 2012, 04:07 pm by opnly bafld »

Bob in St. Louis

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Re: Why isnt omni directional speaker popular?
« Reply #9 on: 23 Nov 2012, 02:46 pm »
True omnis (and dipoles, etc) don't exist, though speaker designs described as such do.
:scratch: You got me there.

opnly bafld

Re: Why isnt omni directional speaker popular?
« Reply #10 on: 23 Nov 2012, 02:55 pm »
:scratch: You got me there.

AJ is going all technical on us, when in fact most people could care less.
Most of the designs that use these names (omni, bipole, dipole. ob) sound different than box speakers with front firing drivers and that really is the point.

ricardojoa

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Re: Why isnt omni directional speaker popular?
« Reply #11 on: 23 Nov 2012, 03:12 pm »
Richard, this highlights the problem well. The physical really real world definition of an "omni" vs what the market perceives as "omni". What you described above is anything but "omni", except at certain frequencies (can't find any specs), which, if low, describes about 95% of all speakers. That would make my M1 an "omni" also. :wink:
True omnis (and dipoles, etc) don't exist, though speaker designs described as such do. Any speaker "omni" directional at HF (say >1khz) will mandate placement minimally 3' away from walls to provide sufficient reflected delay time and prevent spatial smearing. Hence their non-popularity. They have to be well out into the room and that proves domestically unacceptable in most households.

cheers,

AJ
Well i cant log in with the name Richard, so i dont think im Richardo.
Anyway, that particular hr1 is kind a hybrid. Based on decware discription, when comparing to a front firing speaker, omnis usually doesnt have that prominant mid.
Anyway, im not sure if a omni speaker really nneds to pull out a few feets from the back wall like some open baffle, as the omni driver actually fires upwards and will get much less reflection from the front wall.
Im still seeking a speaker that can offer a large soundstage that can fit in a small room.

ricardojoa

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Re: Why isnt omni directional speaker popular?
« Reply #12 on: 23 Nov 2012, 03:18 pm »
Great speakers, I think the price also reflects the labor involved in building the cabinet and the quality of sound.
They had been being sold as Turning Point Audio* HR1, now called The Zen Omni, not a lot of these out there, but those that have them love 'em. As mentioned make sure you can place them a few feet from the walls.

*Decware speaker builder and designer of some models

Have you had the chance to hear those? I thought that they arent as fuzzy like OB that needs to be pull out. My listen distance from wall to wall is only 11.5 feet, my speakers are about 10 inches from the wall. i have tried pulinng them out like 3 feet and in allhonesty they sounded acward, it has no depth.

opnly bafld

Re: Why isnt omni directional speaker popular?
« Reply #13 on: 23 Nov 2012, 03:31 pm »
I had a pair that unfortunately I had to sell (June '11) and I have listened to them a couple of other times at Decfest.
While it is true that you can place these closer to the walls because of the hybrid design, I still feel to get the best out of them they need to be out a little further than more conventional front firing speakers.

AJinFLA

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Re: Why isnt omni directional speaker popular?
« Reply #14 on: 23 Nov 2012, 03:43 pm »
i dont think im Richardo.
Well I do think you are indeed Ricardo. I will refer to you as such henceforth.  :D

Anyway, that particular hr1 is kind a hybrid. Based on decware discription, when comparing to a front firing speaker, omnis usually doesnt have that prominant mid.
Without the driver bandwidths (XO frequencies), impossible to say exactly...but exactly as I said, it appears to be frequency dependent "omni".

Anyway, im not sure if a omni speaker really nneds to pull out a few feets from the back wall like some open baffle, as the omni driver actually fires upwards and will get much less reflection from the front wall.
Perhaps you could define what you understand "omni" to mean? Omni by definition, means the source radiates equally in all directions. Which means that there would be equal reflections from the front and side walls if the speaker were equidistant from them. In the case of the speaker you cite, this holds true.

Im still seeking a speaker that can offer a large soundstage that can fit in a small room.
Several ways that can be accomplished.

cheers,

AJ

AJinFLA

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Re: Why isnt omni directional speaker popular?
« Reply #15 on: 23 Nov 2012, 03:51 pm »
:scratch: You got me there.
They are more "omnipolar" and "dipolar" than true omnipole/dipole/etc. in reality, frequency dependent. A traditional box speaker is omnipolar at LF and monopolar at HF.

jimdgoulding

Re: Why isnt omni directional speaker popular?
« Reply #16 on: 23 Nov 2012, 03:52 pm »
They may be more popular for lovers of orchestral music made on location, like me, but less so for others cause according to a review I read recently of MBL omni-directional speakers (pictured), center imagery may be perceived as not focused enough or too laid back.  Might be a dream come true for opera lovers. 



opnly bafld

Re: Why isnt omni directional speaker popular?
« Reply #17 on: 23 Nov 2012, 04:01 pm »
The top radial driver is run full range on the Zen Omni.

opnly bafld

Re: Why isnt omni directional speaker popular?
« Reply #18 on: 23 Nov 2012, 04:18 pm »
They may be more popular for lovers of orchestral music made on location, like me, but less so for others cause according to a review I read recently of MBL omni-directional speakers (pictured), center imagery may be perceived as not focused enough or too laid back.  Might be a dream come true for opera lovers.

That's one of the nice things about these hybrids, they give you a little of both.
But, as is true with all speakers, they are not for everyone.

Edit: deleted image
« Last Edit: 24 Nov 2012, 05:21 pm by opnly bafld »

DaveC113

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Re: Why isnt omni directional speaker popular?
« Reply #19 on: 23 Nov 2012, 04:40 pm »
Im still seeking a speaker that can offer a large soundstage that can fit in a small room.

Then you are barking up the wrong tree, IMO. Omni/dipole/etc need space! A small room will make acoustic problems worse, I think in a small room listening close to the speakers directionality may be a better solution. If you are looking for a good soundstage check out the Omega speakers with the 4.5" driver. With the right amp, they completely disappear and work great in small rooms/nearfield.