[WC]

The Project Debut is a bit cheezy in build quality. Dust cover hinges are made of plastic and probably will break, the tonearm is not particularly wonderful, and I don't recall adjustable VTA. The platter is some plastic composite stuff. However, even with their draw backs, they are in your budget.

Wayner,

He was talking about the Project Debut Carbon which has been upgraded from the Debut turntable you had checked out. The arm and the platter were improved.

[Wayner]

Oops. Well, that table is his budget buster, or did I get that wrong too....

 

[vinyl_guy]

At RMAF in the Avatar Acoustics/AMR room, they were playing a system with a $13,000 TT, a mucho expensive tonearm and a $1,500 cartridge through a $399 phonostage made by the iFi Micro division of AMR. I was blown away by the sound. That little $400 phonostage delviered the goods produced by a very hi end analog front end. Here is a link to a description http://www.analogplanet.com/content/ifi-micro-iphono-fits-palm-your-hand. MM & MC with several gain/load/resistance combinations and 6 different EQ curves.

If your budget can afford a $400 phonostage, you should consider the iFi phono.

[jarcher]

In that context, shouldn't it sound pretty good - sorta like putting a VW four banger in a Formula 1 car?

With that said, I know Soundsmith routinely uses their $400 - $500 phono preamps in megabuck demos.  But in their case they are more interested in selling pricey cartridges - so their vested interest is in saying that the cartridge makes all the difference.

[Ericus Rex]

I'm an oddball here but I've often used a much better cartridge than the table suggested.  Here's my thinking; most agree that the most sonically-different components in a system are speakers and cartridges.  Both vary wildly from type to type and manufacturer to manufacturer so put your money where it will make the most difference; a better cartridge on a lesser table will be more rewarding than a low level cartridge (which would be a better match financially) on that same table .  Much like a great pair of speakers should always sound pretty good if your amp/pre is decent.  Sure, you aren't getting 100% out of the cartridge or the speakers but 90% of a great cartridge will most times beat a mediocre cartridge at 100%.  I know, I'm the oddball here.

[vinyl_guy]

In that context, shouldn't it sound pretty good - sorta like putting a VW four banger in a Formula 1 car?

I have heard great front end systems sound fabulous through one phonostage and not so hot through another. The year before they used the AMR PH-77 which is a $12,000 phonostage. I was assuming they had the PH-77 in the system and was surprised to find out I was listening to vinyl through a $400 phonostage. I'm not suggesting it is anywhere close to the PH-77, but it was damn good for $400.

That being said, there is no question that a better front end system is going to sound better through the iFi phono than an entry level system. I'm not suggesting that the iFi phono will allow an entry level system to sound like a $20,000+ system. However, the iFi phono is good enough to be one's phonostage through several table/tonearm/cartidge upgrades and that was my reason for suggesting it.

[roscoeiii]

Know that this is more than OP is wanting to spend, but the Stereophile Review of the VPI Traveller was pretty impressive.

[jarcher]

This is based on limited experience, but I'm gonna say that the next logical jump from a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon would be the VPI Traveler or perhaps the Clearaudio Concept.  But full disclosure : that was pretty much my move, although from an inferior Pro-ject 1.3 RPM (vs debut Carbon) to VPI Traveler.  If I had started w/ the Debut Carbon, I may have held off.  Not because the VPI Traveler isn't great, but because I think the Debut Carbon swings high above it's price point. The RPM 1.3, while sexy, had too many limitations, including a mediocre platter & tone arm and a motor that if it so much as touched the TT created significant resonances / hums.  Doing upgrades to it just didn't make sense when you could step into something that was so much better built w/ the VPI traveler. 

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

Table/arm is more important than cart.

IME, a quality phonostage can upgrade a so-so TT/so-so cartridge to sound great!

c-J

[roscoeiii]

This is based on limited experience, but I'm gonna say that the next logical jump from a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon would be the VPI Traveler or perhaps the Clearaudio Concept.  But full disclosure : that was pretty much my move, although from an inferior Pro-ject 1.3 RPM (vs debut Carbon) to VPI Traveler.  If I had started w/ the Debut Carbon, I may have held off.  Not because the VPI Traveler isn't great, but because I think the Debut Carbon swings high above it's price point. The RPM 1.3, while sexy, had too many limitations, including a mediocre platter & tone arm and a motor that if it so much as touched the TT created significant resonances / hums.  Doing upgrades to it just didn't make sense when you could step into something that was so much better built w/ the VPI traveler.

And from the sounds of the Stereophile review, you can upgrade the Traveller platter to a Classic platter....

[roscoeiii]

Hi.
IME, a quality phonostage can upgrade a so-so TT/so-so cartridge to sound great!

c-J

I'd stick to table/arm first, then cart & phono stage. Quite decent carts and phono stages can be had at the $100-200 price point.

c-J can you give us an idea of what price point phono stages you are thinking of here?

[ehoove]

While I think the OP's budget of $500 will purchase a worthy new table, I really feel he would be better served to purchase a late model table used that he can resell for little loss once he finds out what he is really after in a table/arm/cartridge combo. One can get into a serviceable used table rather cheaply then invest in a good used phono stage that will stay with him for a while. I would suggest it needs to be MM/MC compatible and have adjustable load if at all possible. I would recommend in the used arena a Musical Surroundings Phonomena (under $250 without the battery pack) which show up used on the bay frequently. Just my thoughts!
Good luck to the op,
Jim

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

(1) I'd stick to table/arm first, then cart & phono stage. Quite decent carts and phono stages can be had at the $100-200 price point.

(2) c-J can you give us an idea of what price point phono stages you are thinking of here?

(1) WOW, what brandname "decent carts & phono stages" can be available for "$100- $200" so cheap???

(2) I can't recommend any price ideas as I built my tube phonostages which do made my so-so vintage TT & so-so MM catridge sound great from classicals to rocks.

c-J

[orthobiz]

I think spend the money on the table. I have a somewhat max'ed out Linn Sondek but use the Linn Adikt mm phono cartridge.

Paul

[neobop]

But here's my question: Which part of the vinyl rig is most responsible for the final sound? Would a budget table with an above average cartridge be superior to a more expensive table and a stock cartridge? Does all this matter little if the phono preamp sucks? What have you guys found makes the biggest impact on a quality budget rig? And remember, I'm a noob, so speak slowly! haha

IMO, the order of importance is table, arm, cart, phono stage - in that order.  That is assuming you maintain a certain level of competence with each component.  Yes it matters if the phono pre sucks.  These days you can get a pretty nice one for $200, V-LPS.

Spinning the record and having a stable platform for the cart are the most basic and important things.  If the platter wobbles or the pitch changes with speed variations or the arm has crap bearings, a great cart will make it sound worse, revealing the imperfections.  This is from the link (page 1):

Arrived at "the Sound Room" in Traverse City MI. on Saturday. After listening to the Debut Carbon Fiber and the RPM 1.3 for what seemed like 2.5 hours I decided on the Debut Carbon.

Once getting it to my dads { I Live 3 hours away and he is only 1/2 hour from Traverse, plus he has great gear to listen on! VTL preamp, Jolida Tube amp, Linn Sodek and these big ass Merlin speakers. All this really lets you feel like you are right there with the band!} We listened for a few albums and decided that the Ortofon 2M that came with it had to go. So I put on my Denon DL-110. BLAMM!!! The cartridge smaked the record like it was weighted with gold. After checking with tracking force and trying to figure what else might have changed we were stumped as to why the cartridge was riding against the record. My dad happend to leave the arm "next" to the record and as we watched it was drawn to the platter. So you see the Pro-Ject Carbon Fiber has a metal platter and the Denon Dl-110 has a strong magnet in it. We were floored at this finding. I have video of it I will post once I get around to it.

I notified the owner of The Sound Room and he was ever so gracious to meet me there on Sunday and I upgraded to the RPM 1.3. The Pro-Ject 1.3 has an MDF platter. We listened to the Sumiko Pearl for a few albums and determined it to had to go. Placing the Denon DL-110 on the Pro-Ject 1.3 is an incredible sound. The cartridge is brand new and I have to admit we were both very pleased with this set up right out of the box. {It does not compare to his Grado Sonata that is on his Linn, but it was in the same area code}

I have been waiting for this moment for months. Like many who read this you probably have poured over all the entry level budget turntable reviews wondering which one is right for you. I spent way to many hours on that subject on my google page. I have to say that this is the right turntable for me. I like everything about it. The sound is full, deep and high with this Denon. It has handled everything from Andrew Bird, Ray Brown, Miles Davis, Echo and the Bunneymen, Tom Petty, Don Cherry, Canonball Adderly, Norah Jones, Coutning Crows, Pink Floyd, Wilco and Neil Young exactly as I expected to hear them! {Thats all the albums I have listend to so far so if it sounds like this now I cannot wait until the cartridge opens up.

I have heard this set up on an incredible tube system and at home now I am using my Soundcraftsmen Pre-Amp, Music Hall 25.2 Amp and my Athena LS-500 Speakers. It really sound awesome

The Denon DL-110 is $139.  The secret is in the combo.
neo

[roscoeiii]

Hi.
(1) WOW, what brandname "decent carts & phono stages" can be available for "$100- $200" so cheap???

(2) I can't recommend any price ideas as I built my tube phonostages which do made my so-so vintage TT & so-so MM catridge sound great from classicals to rocks.

c-J

The main phono stage I had in mind was the Musical Fidelity V-LPS. I have also heard good things about the Bellari tubed phono pre, Rega Fono Mini, Music Hall. There is also Pro-Ject and Edwards Audio. Music Direct carries most of these so you would have their 30 day return policy if these were not to your liking.

For carts, you can get a Denon 103 for under $200, if you have LOMC capabilities. I think there is a HOMC Denon that can be had for under $200 too. Big fan of Shure carts with a JICO SAS Stylus, that's under $200 if you get a used body. I have even had luck with a used Pickering (rebadged Stanton) and have gotten an Ortofon with a line contact stylus for under $200. 

[Delta Wave]

The main phono stage I had in mind was the Musical Fidelity V-LPS. I have also heard good things about the Bellari tubed phono pre, Rega Fono Mini, Music Hall. There is also Pro-Ject and Edwards Audio. Music Direct carries most of these so you would have their 30 day return policy if these were not to your liking.

For carts, you can get a Denon 103 for under $200, if you have LOMC capabilities. I think there is a HOMC Denon that can be had for under $200 too. Big fan of Shure carts with a JICO SAS Stylus, that's under $200 if you get a used body. I have even had luck with a used Pickering (rebadged Stanton) and have gotten an Ortofon with a line contact stylus for under $200.

Right on.
The old Pro-Ject Phono Box can be had for under $100 and it's pretty derned nice. I've also heard very good things about the db Systems Audio phono stage @ $175 brand new. I've  had very good luck with used broadcast types like the Micro Traks, Russcos, & Stantons... all very nice sounding. Just make sure to get one with a RIAA curve if you go that route, there are some very old ones out there that lack it.

[vortrex]

I'm using a Denon 103R ($238 new from cometsupply.com) and am blown away with the performance I'm getting.  This cart can do a lot with the right gear.

[Elizabeth]

Cleaning records. I would skip the record cleaning machine unless you really like the idea.
A "Spin Clean" would be the one to buy for a beginner if you must have one.

I just rinse LPs off under the kitchen tap. Rotate the LP twice a side, slowly under a gentle stream of lukewarm/cool water. Pat dry with VIVA paper towel. Then vacuum off with standard upright canister vac with a brush attachment.
Really just about free.
Works really well.
Only a few records actually need any further cleaning.
The only caveat is play the record right after cleaning. Then no moisture will be trapped in the sleeve and LP. (specially plastic lined sleeves) I would say do this even with any cleaning machine. Once you have seen what slightly damp LPs look like in a plastic sleeve six months later...

Buy a used phono preamp. and a new TT.
They all are about equal. Everyone claims one or the  other is 'more' important. Everyone is different. For a beginner buying a new TT, get one which comes with a recommended cartridge.
Easier. Less messing up mistakes.
For the phono box, buy whatever seems a great deal at the time. market supply/demand make saying buy X or Y hard. Most phono preamps are decent. Some like one, some another. No big deal. If  you buy used, you should be able to upgrade later at almost no cost. Buy the Phono box after deciding on the TT/cart. As the phono box may need MORE or LESS gain, depending on MC cart, or MM cart. (Big deal... really matters.)

[jarcher]

That is assuming you maintain a certain level of competence with each component.  Yes it matters if the phono pre sucks.  These days you can get a pretty nice one for $200, V-LPS.

Arrived at "the Sound Room" in Traverse City MI. on Saturday.........

Yes - certain level of competence being the key words.  But yes - $200 can get you a competent phono stage & another $200 or so a competent cartridge.

Don't know why - but I find that "sound room" review annoying.  "Upgraded" to the RPM 1.3 vs the debut carbon?  Not in my experience, and I had a 1.3.  How's a crumbier tonearm, platter and cartridge an "upgrade"? 

And the whole business about the Denon cartridge magnet pulling the cartridge down so much against the metal platter.  Also seems highly doubtful. Is the Denon cantilever made of jello?

In reading about the debut carbon I'd really go for one of the more "professional" reviews......