[HsvHeelFan]

Hi everyone,

My old Velodyne subwoofer amp is starting to fail.  Velodyne doesn't have any replacement amps available.

I know I should come up with the 7K or so and purchase the Model T Bryston Loudspeakers and just get rid of the subwoofer.  Long term, I'll probably do that. 

However, for the next 3-4 years, I can't spend that kind of money.

My main amp is a late edition Bryston 4B-ST and my main Speakers are KEF Q-70's.  The Q-70's definitely need the subwoofer help on the low end.  Mid and High's on the KEF are fine.

So, I'm thinking about purchasing a new subwoofer.  I'd like to spend between $800 and $1200.  Any recommendations on subwoofers that you love?   If you have opinions on subwoofers that you dislike, let me know that as well.

I won't be using line level to drive the sub.  I'm running a straight 2.1 system and I'll use Speaker level lines to feed the subwoofer.  I'm leaning towards the Rythmic F12.

HsvHeelFan

[Guy 13]

Hi everyone,

My old Velodyne subwoofer amp is starting to fail.  Velodyne doesn't have any replacement amps available.

I know I should come up with the 7K or so and purchase the Model T Bryston Loudspeakers and just get rid of the subwoofer.  Long term, I'll probably do that. 

However, for the next 3-4 years, I can't spend that kind of money.

My main amp is a late edition Bryston 4B-ST and my main Speakers are KEF Q-70's.  The Q-70's definitely need the subwoofer help on the low end.  Mid and High's on the KEF are fine.

So, I'm thinking about purchasing a new subwoofer.  I'd like to spend between $800 and $1200.  Any recommendations on subwoofers that you love?   If you have opinions on subwoofers that you dislike, let me know that as well.

I won't be using line level to drive the sub.  I'm running a straight 2.1 system and I'll use Speaker level lines to feed the subwoofer.  I'm leaning towards the Rythmic F12.

HsvHeelFan

Hi HsvHeelFan and all Audio Circle members.

I have two (02) Rythmik F12G (One for each channel)
that I purchased via Danny at GR Research
and I am very satisfied with them.
I use them exclusively for music,
but I am sure they would perform well for HT.
Hope this help.

Guy 13

[pureiso]

Hi everyone,

My old Velodyne subwoofer amp is starting to fail.  Velodyne doesn't have any replacement amps available.

I know I should come up with the 7K or so and purchase the Model T Bryston Loudspeakers and just get rid of the subwoofer.  Long term, I'll probably do that. 

However, for the next 3-4 years, I can't spend that kind of money.

My main amp is a late edition Bryston 4B-ST and my main Speakers are KEF Q-70's.  The Q-70's definitely need the subwoofer help on the low end.  Mid and High's on the KEF are fine.

So, I'm thinking about purchasing a new subwoofer.  I'd like to spend between $800 and $1200.  Any recommendations on subwoofers that you love?   If you have opinions on subwoofers that you dislike, let me know that as well.

I won't be using line level to drive the sub.  I'm running a straight 2.1 system and I'll use Speaker level lines to feed the subwoofer.  I'm leaning towards the Rythmic F12.

HsvHeelFan

Rythmik and HSU I am a big fan of.

Also, I would look into a really good amp if you feel the Velodyne was good.  You have the box and the driver, so a new amp is not a hard thing change on it.

[HsvHeelFan]

Thanks for the replies.   

The new subwoofer will be used exclusively to cover the cross over point and below for a 2 channel audio only stereo rig.

I've got Home Theater system somewhere else in the house and it uses poor Polk's.

The Kef Q70's have an upper and lower ported bass chambers using a 6 1/2 driver.  They're great for mids and highs but their bass is a little thin.

What does the crowd think of the Rythmic subwoofer plate amps?   I haven't looked at how one of those would be to adapt to the Velodyne.  Heck, I've never even looked inside the Velodyne.  All I know is that it has one of those big long excursion drivers.

HsvHeelFan

[pureiso]

Thanks for the replies.   

The new subwoofer will be used exclusively to cover the cross over point and below for a 2 channel audio only stereo rig.

I've got Home Theater system somewhere else in the house and it uses poor Polk's.

The Kef Q70's have an upper and lower ported bass chambers using a 6 1/2 driver.  They're great for mids and highs but their bass is a little thin.

What does the crowd think of the Rythmic subwoofer plate amps?   I haven't looked at how one of those would be to adapt to the Velodyne.  Heck, I've never even looked inside the Velodyne.  All I know is that it has one of those big long excursion drivers.

HsvHeelFan

Amps for subs are interchangeable in most cases, at least in my opinion.  Find one with a decent parametric EQ, and enough watts to drive the woofer. 

The Rythmic amps are designed with the servo in mind, but that can be disabled I believe. But once again, you might as well dig up some measurements on your old subwoofer to compare with a new subwoofer.

[brucek]

I know I should come up with the 7K or so and purchase the Model T Bryston Loudspeakers and just get rid of the subwoofer.  Long term, I'll probably do that.

I'm sure the Model T is a fine set of speakers, but I can't say I really agree with this idea. Bass frequencies (20Hz-80Hz) are the most problematic as a result of room resonances that are set up between parallel surfaces (walls, ceilings, floors). These axial modes create standing waves that cause cancellations or peaks at various locations in the room, so careful speaker placement is important at these frequencies. The subwoofer can be located at the best spot (without the worry of directionality or soundfield) to reduce peaks or valleys at the listening position for the best low frequency sound. This just isn't possible if you've assigned those low end frequencies to your mains. The mains require directionality and are placed for the best soundfield. It's wise to bass manage that signal and send all those pesky low frequencies to a subwoofer, freeing the mains to do their job.

A subwoofer is designed for the under 80Hz spectrum and can be placed anywhere in the room since frequencies below 80Hz aren't localizable, it allows a lot of flexibility of location for the sub.  Not many mains speakers can realistically produce 20Hz - 40Hz as well as a subwoofer, but either way, when you feed a full range signal to two mains speakers you are in for some serious cancellation problems at the low end. Each speaker acoustically couples to the room resonances differently. It's just about impossible to create good bass in this situation. This is why bass management exists. We use a processor to separate all the low frequency information and send it to one speaker that can be located for the optimum signal in the room.

brucek

[James Tanner]

Also we have done a lot of testing with Sub placement over the years and measuring in real rooms.

Some Tips:

1. Use more than 1 Sub if you can to help reduce room dips and peaks

2. Up to 4 Subs can be used if reducing room interaction is critical

3. Place the Sub(s) at the midway points along the wall rather than in the corners.

james

[jarcher]

I really like my REL T-5 that I use w/ towers that are even more bass shy than the Q70s : Totem Arros.  They have a unique speaker level connector that really helps to integrate them w/ your mains.  They also have a very nice fit & finish.  And of course it sounds good : fast & seamless integration w/ the Totems.  Retail for $700 (I got as demo for maybe $150 less). 

If you need a bit more power & LF extension, perhaps the T-7, which retails at $1000. I really haven't felt though that I missing the bass I want w/ the T-5, whether for music or HT.

[niels]

Even very expensive speakers get better with the help of a subwoofer. I agree with James`tip no: 3, this can be a revelation to say the least.
I bought a shoebox sized REL T3 last year, it has an 8" active driver and an 8" passive radiator instead of the normal bass reflex hole.
I wanted a small subwoofer that my wife would accept, and I placed it in a corner behind the left speaker, under a table, and it really made the system sound much better. Last week I put it 1/3 along the front wall and was really surprised to hear the difference, now I didnt only have good deep bass but I could hear all the details in the bass as well, a whole new experience. No way its going back into the corner.
Like jarcher I use the speaker level connector, the main speakers are not filtered, they run full-range. I know that REL doesnt get much praise in tests compared to JLAudio, SVS, TSU, Velodyne and the other home theater giants, measurements for distortion on the RELs seem to go through the roof compared to SVS, but REL has a solid reputation for integrating very well with the main speakers in stereo and I would buy REL again.

[FireGuy]

Axiom's EP500 or maybe two of Outlaw's LMF-1 EX models.

If you will consider more room in your budget,  Axiom Audio has their EP600.  This is a rather large sub typically bigger than most medium sized towers.

[sfraser]

Axiom's EP500 or maybe two of Outlaw's LMF-1 EX models.

If you will consider more room in your budget,  Axiom Audio has their EP600.  This is a rather large sub typically bigger than most medium sized towers.

While I have not heard them personally, I have heard a lot of good things about the Axiom sub's. I think James had a couple during his Model T testing if I recall correctly.

[bpape]

I would 3rd the Rhythmik recommendation.  Very good sub for music and a lot of flexibility on the amp to really dial it in right.  It's right in the sweet spot of your budget also at $999 I believe.

Bryan

[FireGuy]

While I have not heard them personally, I have heard a lot of good things about the Axiom sub's. I think James had a couple during his Model T testing if I recall correctly.

You are correct...James did use the EP500 at the Montreal show.

[HsvHeelFan]

You are correct...James did use the EP500 at the Montreal show.

This is really for James.  How did you integrate the EP-500 Axiom with the Model T's?  Did you use a 10B Sub crossover to split the signal between the Axiom EP-500 and the Model T's?

Did you have another amp between the 10B Sub crossover and the EP-500?

I don't "get" exactly how the EP-500 internal crossover works.  Most subs have line in with 80hz HPF line out or Speaker Level in / Speaker level out (HPF at 80Hz).

Used 10B sub crossovers are few and far between out there and would be a significant investment compared to price of the subs that I'm looking at.  Although, I'm thinking that if I go that route, I'll always be set, as far as crossovers go as long as I have the 10B around.

Can you take the Low Pass 10b output and feed it directly to the subwoofer internal amps without an additional amp in between?

HsvHeelFan

[James Tanner]

This is really for James.  How did you integrate the EP-500 Axiom with the Model T's?  Did you use a 10B Sub crossover to split the signal between the Axiom EP-500 and the Model T's?

Did you have another amp between the 10B Sub crossover and the EP-500?

I don't "get" exactly how the EP-500 internal crossover works.  Most subs have line in with 80hz HPF line out or Speaker Level in / Speaker level out (HPF at 80Hz).

Used 10B sub crossovers are few and far between out there and would be a significant investment compared to price of the subs that I'm looking at.  Although, I'm thinking that if I go that route, I'll always be set, as far as crossovers go as long as I have the 10B around.

Can you take the Low Pass 10b output and feed it directly to the subwoofer internal amps without an additional amp in between?

HsvHeelFan

Hi

The Model T goes down to 25Hz so unless you need a .1 channel in your surround setup a sub is not really required in most systems.  Yes the 10B can feed the powered Sub and you just set the crossover point in the Sub crossover at the highest point and use the 10B controls to determine which frequency and roll off slope you need.

Integrating a Sub into an audio system is not easy and the 10B gives you lots of flexibility.

james

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

(1) my main Speakers are KEF Q-70's.  The Q-70's definitely need the subwoofer help on the low end.  Mid and High's on the KEF are fine.

(2) I'm thinking about purchasing a new subwoofer.  I'd like to spend between $800 and $1200.

(3)I won't be using line level to drive the sub.  I'm running a straight 2.1 system and I'll use Speaker level lines to feed the subwoofer. 

Frist off, I am not recomending any active sub for you as you had owned one of the best in the sub market.

(1) Yes, any loudspeakers NEED an active sub to handle subsonic music properly, e.g. bass pedal notes
      of pipe organs.
     I am using a pair of KEF 2-way bookshelvers (with a 9.5" x13" woofer). I did not know I missed so much
     bass music for so long until I've added on my 100W 10" sub to my system. What a shame!

(2) You may call me cheap again. To pay one grand plus for a sub is some big buck for me as mine is not      such an exotic brandname like Velodyne but still a well-known US brandname which cost me much much much less. Exotic brandname is always a strong temptation provided one can afford it. But if done properly, a cheapie sub can still deliver excellent sub-sonic performance like mine.

(3) This is always a dilemma for stereo amps owners to use active sub.
     Since no stereo preamp or intergrated amp get any dedicated sub O/P feed, the only way available for
     layman endusers is to use the loudspeaker I/P of the sub.
     But then the volume of the sub changes with the volume of the mainstream amp. No good.
     Besides, the hum, noise, distortion etc from the amp will be some added 'bonus' feeding the sub as well.
     Another NO GOOG!
   
    Unless one has to drop a bundle to buy a sub electronic x-over unit. What else can be more helpful?

   One can tap the music signal from the preamp O/P to feed the line I/P of the sub. But then, something else happens, affecting the sound of the mainstream signals. It is that the capacitance loading of the sub woofer interconnects & the low I/P impedance Z of the sub's built-in SS power amp.

   They both draw down the music signal level & sonic quality passing thru the amp. This happens to my
   tube phonostage & passive linestage & I don't accept it.

   So instead of spending some big bucks to buy a costly subwoof low-cut x-over like other helpless audio
   fans, as a die-hard cheapie DIYer, I am design/building one simple impedance buffer to match my sub.
 
   Technically, who needs to pay some bigbucks for a external active LF X-over unit as the sub already provide low- cut frequency adjustment?
 
If this works out, I will be a happy camper.

c-J
 

     

[ragg987]

I made a similar move about 1 year ago, so here is some input.

I had a Monitor Audio 12" dual push-pull sub from about 10 years ago. Well reviewed at the time, and served me well until the amp fried. I then re-wired it so that the sub was driven by an external sub amp. All was good, however I was not satisied with the sound quality - the change had made me re-evaluate the sound and being more critical about it, I discovered that it was not optimal.

A new sub was in order - ended up buying 2 Rythmik F12 kits, and have been using one F12 for a while (the 2nd one is still being built). The difference is not trivial, so am very happy with the change, just wish i had made the change earlier rather than messed around with a replacement amp.

I suspect the development in subs over this period has been significant, so my 10 year old MA sub was just too old in terms of technology and could not keep up with the newer designs.

(3) This is always a dilemma for stereo amps owners to use active sub.
     Since no stereo preamp or intergrated amp get any dedicated sub O/P feed, the only way available for
     layman endusers is to use the loudspeaker I/P of the sub.
     But then the volume of the sub changes with the volume of the mainstream amp. No good.
     Besides, the hum, noise, distortion etc from the amp will be some added 'bonus' feeding the sub as well.
     Another NO GOOG!
   
    Unless one has to drop a bundle to buy a sub electronic x-over unit. What else can be more helpful?

   One can tap the music signal from the preamp O/P to feed the line I/P of the sub. But then, something else happens, affecting the sound of the mainstream signals. It is that the capacitance loading of the sub woofer interconnects & the low I/P impedance Z of the sub's built-in SS power amp.

   They both draw down the music signal level & sonic quality passing thru the amp. This happens to my
   tube phonostage & passive linestage & I don't accept it.

   So instead of spending some big bucks to buy a costly subwoof low-cut x-over like other helpless audio
   fans, as a die-hard cheapie DIYer, I am design/building one simple impedance buffer to match my sub.

Interesting points, I have never tried using either main stereo line-level input to sub or speaker-level input so cannot confirm if the audio is degraded. I am currently using the .1 output from my processor to the sub. Once I complete my 2nd sub, I would like to try stereo subs (instead of dual mono) which means I shall have to address this point at some point. I think something like a mini-DSP or the Dual-core Antimode may give a lot of value as they do more than just cross-over functions. Any thoughts? Would be keen to hear about your results of this impedance buffer idea.

[apoid1]

Rel subwoofer for Music

[brucek]

I am currently using the .1 output from my processor to the sub. Once I complete my 2nd sub, I would like to try stereo subs (instead of dual mono) which means I shall have to address this point at some point. I think something like a mini-DSP or the Dual-core Antimode may give a lot of value as they do more than just cross-over functions. Any thoughts?

If you're presently using the .1 from your processor to the sub, I see no reason not to continue that connection, even with the addition of a second sub.

If you attempt stereo subs from the line level stereo mains output as an alternative, you would lose the LFE channel from the .1 output that is needed for movies in 5.1 mode. It would also require full range signals being sent to the mains speakers which would cause null cancellations and peaks with the subs.

You would gain little to nothing from stereo subs, as you can't generally localize frequencies below 80Hz.

Continue to use the bass management of your processor and simply split the signal from the .1 output and feed both subs. Positioning is important to smooth the response of the low end.

brucek

[Robert D]

Depending on your budget I went along with the Paradigm Sub 1s.
They are a little costly but what can I say. I went with a pair
The bass is very clean and very tight.
I would at least try and listen to a pair
I'm running 2 x 4bsst2's vertically bi-Amped to my Signature S8’V3’s
My Subs are connected through the rca analog outs of my BP26
My main speakers are 3 feet from the back wall.So that said
Imaging..soundstage.. Bass  not to be missed .

Not the best pictures see below





Regards Robert