[firedog]

The point about only high priced audio being talked about is a good one, and relevant.
There are companies around trying to provide something sanely priced.

iFi audio is putting out a whole line of small sanely priced devices that sound very good.
Nuforce is doing the same. Their small Direct digital amp has gotten rave reviews for its state of the art SQ, and it is affordable.
Musical Fidelity has their "V" line of products.

Lots of companies make very good powered monitors with very good sound starting at about $200. These kill the system I had has a teenager in the 70's (Advent II's + Kenwood integrated with 15WPC+ Pioneers cheapest full size TT).

One pair of these and a source and you have a very good starter system for a few hundred bucks. No need to even get an amp. So a good system for several hundred dollars is still available. It won't fill a big room and shake it, just like my original system wouldn't have.

For inexpensive audio electronics these days, the place to go is stuff designed to be for desktop/nearfield. Very good stuff designed to sound good, be small, and not very expensive.

[James Romeyn]

What did you folks think of the Janzen electrostatic hybrids? 

[jarcher]

We went there for breakfast, and service was quick and competent, the food was very good for diner fare.  However since we went there about 10am for breakfast we passed on lunch with Phil and Steve, sorry guys, we had no room for food then.  Went over to Mi Rancho for lunch around 3:30, which is almost next door to the Diner, and it was decent Mexican fare for you easterners, nothing like home in SoCal though.  But it was tasty and filling if a little over priced.  We had to miss the dinner tonight as we had to be back here by 9pm latest.  However got to see many of the guys at the show as we traveled the different rooms.  We missed more than we saw I think, but I'll put  up some pics later.

Seems we keep missing each other even when we're at the same event! 

Believe it or not, Mi Rancho for the DC area is both very good & very cheap!  Sad isn't it compared to the Southwest or CA? At least it's not that overly heavy / salted / goopy stuff that often tries to pass off as mexican or SW / TEX Mex.

[jarcher]

Hey DB Cooper : Great to see you & thanks for sharing comments.  As cool as the stuff looks, can't believe you liked the sound so much from the High Water room!  He is one of the few guys / rooms that plays better music.

"Best of Show" for me so far:

Volti + Border Patrol Amp + EMMLab gear
Salk Soundscape 8 + AVA 650R
Quad 63's w/ Miyajima boutique japanese gear (? - whatever)
BG Radia subwoofer. Nothing wrong w/ GT audio speaker either.

"Best Bang for the Buck" :
Woo Audio
SVS

General Observations : too many rooms w/ bass management issues (guys - ever heard of bass traps and/or eq?).  Too much gear that sounded either too hard / bright or grainy, or represented highly questionable value.

Lastly, glad to hear there's someone else who feels that high end audio pricing is way out of whack.  The sound quality has to be put into perspective of value for money.  We do it with everything else - why not audio gear?  General inflation aside, there's been an apparent logarithmic rise in prices in just the last decade, even when more & more is being off-shored for production.  Firedog makes a good point that there are very good inexpensive alternatives (e.g. the new gear TEAC has put out), though these companies need to make the effort & the marketing budget to participate in these kind of shows before the audiophile industry implodes or just ends up being hyper-expensive boutique show off items for the ultra rich in emerging economies / "BRIC" nations.

Still a lot to hit on Sunday final day, though I'm tempted to just spend all the time in the above three mentioned rooms & save my ears!

[jarcher]

What did you folks think of the Janzen electrostatic hybrids?

Nuthin wrong with those at all.  Guy's done a decent set up & refreshing to see / hear minimalism Laptop, Exasound DAC / Preamp + Bryston monoblocks. 

Problem : for the $ you can get an even better magnepan or used Quad 63 (more transparent / better soundstage).  Don't want to kick a guy for trying though & wish them all the best for continued improvement. I've heard a lot worse for a lot more money this weekend.

[john dozier]

DB, I could not have said it better. Pure audio systems are being marginalized by the outrageous prices being sought. No wonder todays young people are going mobile. It is the only way they can afford near SOTA sound. With a few exceptions such as ClassD audio, manufacturers have priced themselves out the market. RIP. Regards

[dB Cooper]

jarcher- Dunno about High Water, just there for one track, that one sounded pretty good at any rate. GT audio, I liked the smaller system better, bigger one sounded too bright to me. That is, as I said earlier, becoming a pet peeve. He is one of the value leaders there though- extremely reasonable pricing and a real nice guy to boot. No blizzard of buzzwords when you talk to him either; he has a practical approach that I like. Hope it takes off for him. "Best Bang for the Buck"for me were the Odyssey Loreleis, Philharmonic (Those floor standers that were shaking the walls with tight clean bass were only like $3700/pr. They may like a bigger room though I think. The towers and monitors also were good values. Daedalus Pans were pretty good BFTB too. SVS as well.

James Romeyn- Thought the Janszens had good definition but a little dry & bass-shy. jarcher's comments on these from a value standpoint are well taken, especially about there being much worse at much higher price points.

Other odds and ends: Classic Audio Loudspeakers had a much better room this year than last, although I definitely preferred their T-3.4 to the significantly brighter (there I go again) voicing of the Hartsfield that was playing when I was there. Volti, thought I heard too much 'horn' signature (think "hands-cupped-over-the-mouth"voicing) from them.

Woo: Wish they had brought a wider variety of headphones like last year- I had hoped to hear the Beyer T1's. Figured if anybody at the show would have them, Woo would be the guys. Their new amp with the plexi top looks very cool though.

Van Alstine: Wanted  to hear the Ultravalve but didn't get the chance. It is a beautiful amp that takes a back seat to nothing in terms of fit and finish without a bunch of artsy fartsy metalwork driving up the cost. Form follows function here.

[mix4fix]

Odyssey Audio is great. $5700 for pre-amp, mono-black amps, tower speakers, and cables. Both Phil and I are each considering a piece of Odyssey electronics.

I'm more and more liking those Soundfield speakers.

[FireGuy]

The point about only high priced audio being talked about is a good one, and relevant.
There are companies around trying to provide something sanely priced.

iFi audio is putting out a whole line of small sanely priced devices that sound very good.
Nuforce is doing the same. Their small Direct digital amp has gotten rave reviews for its state of the art SQ, and it is affordable.
Musical Fidelity has their "V" line of products.

Lots of companies make very good powered monitors with very good sound starting at about $200. These kill the system I had has a teenager in the 70's (Advent II's + Kenwood integrated with 15WPC+ Pioneers cheapest full size TT).

One pair of these and a source and you have a very good starter system for a few hundred bucks. No need to even get an amp. So a good system for several hundred dollars is still available. It won't fill a big room and shake it, just like my original system wouldn't have.

For inexpensive audio electronics these days, the place to go is stuff designed to be for desktop/nearfield. Very good stuff designed to sound good, be small, and not very expensive.

Good point firedog.  Who doesn't drool over these mega-priced products and its majority focus. 

It's a much tougher challenge (IMO) to develop and market more "sanely" priced pieces than to create, design and sell "spare no expense" gear; keeping in mind it needs to be of reasonable audiophile quality in terms of performance.    Heck, I can find and hire any qualified sound, engineer, cabinet makers etc. with the luxury of saying "do your thing and by the way don't worry about development/production costs, just do your thing."  Kudos to those vendors today providing the market with viable and "sanely" priced products.

Too bad there aren't shows like this in my area.  I wouldn't forget the napkins.

[jtwrace]

Soundfield Audio

Thoughts?

[Phil A]

Thoughts?

A lot of speaker for $3.5k.  I was more looking at things I might do after a move in a secondary system so was a bit more focused on reasonably priced electronics (preamps with HT bypass and DACs).  Unless I sell a pair of speakers before the move, I won't be getting speakers.  I liked the Philharmonic slim towers too at $2.7k and the small GTAs at also $2.7k.  I did not get a chance to hear the Odyssey $2.7k speakers yet except from the hall.  I was quite impressed with Odyssey electronics for the money.  I may be getting a preamp at some point early next year after the move and Oddysey and AVA are at the top of the list. 

[DS-21]

Back in the iron age, I was a wide eyed 14yo kid who heard his first remotely decent component system and was so blown away that I saved up every dime I got my hands on for a year and bought a Dyna SCA80 kit, a pair of Dyna A25's, a Dual TT  and Shure M91E cart. I was a kid in an upper middle class household, not rich, but that $330 system was within reach (I paid for all of it) and gave me around ten years of musical enjoyment. Bought a tuner and tape deck when I had the money for those.

Put that kid in an audio show of today, like CAF, and what would be today's counterpart to that affordable, but musically satisfying system?

IMHO there isn't one.***

Look at it another way. Who goes to such shows? Based on my view at the last Atlanta AXPONA, mostly upper-middle class men with disposable income. They're not there to see budget stuff. They're there mostly to gasp at exotics and marvel at cool finishes.

You also nailed it with your question, "Are they afraid that if they show reasonably priced gear, some won't be able to tell the difference, and will opt for the lower cost/lower profit margin system?" The obvious answer, at least in any category other than loudspeakers, is "yes."

Furthermore, maybe CAF is an exception, because my impression is that it's a more hobbyist/dealer driven show. But lots of reports of previous shows with more large-company support have noted the high-quality budget gear. Pioneer has often shown their very good cheap speakers for instance. As for budget separates, given that competently-designed audio electronics basically sound identical anyway, there's just no sonic reason for a budget-minded person to look beyond the AVR from a mass-market brand, or a small computer-focused DAC/amp type setup.

Lastly, consider the following system: AppleTV or AirPort Express ($100ish) to stream digital music from the kid's existing MacBook (free), Griffin Twenty ($100) or Kanto Yaro* ($250) integrated DAC/amp, Pioneer BS22's ($70 on sale) or KEF Q100s ($400 at accessories4less), decent stands (let's say $100ish if new for something from VTI, Wood Technology, etc.), speaker cables made from a random extension cord lying around the kid's parents' home (free). That's a solid foundation that only needs multisubs and a DSP sub controller (miniDSP, Behringer DCX, etc.) to sonically trounce most of the multi-kilobuck systems shown at audio shows. And in real dollar terms I bet it's a lot cheaper than what you described as your first system, while being considerably more refined-sounding if the speakers are set up properly.

*That little Kanto Yaro is a nice value piece I don't see talked about much here. It includes a B&O 50asx2 icepower amp module, DAC, and headphone jack all for $250. It even includes perfectly competent optical cables (a short one and a longer one!) and speaker wires! Fit and finish is also superior to the Teac A-H01, which uses the same amp board and costs twice as much. The Teac uses nicer-looking binding posts, true. The Griffin Twenty is even cheaper, has a subwoofer crossover, and uses a TI amp board with higher output impedance for those who want that "tube sound" coloration. The cool thing about the Twenty is that one can dock one's MacBook power supply on top of it.

[worldcat]

I learned a lot about the channel D, it sucks!  First thing the Sanders are not 14k, you get the speakers, one magtech amp and a real crossover for 14k. The Sanders are amazing speakers and this display of them is tragic.  Most any show the Sanders (2 magtechs and a real crossover) sound amazing and are 1st, 2nd, or 3rd best sounding system at any show.  The top portion of the sanders are hard to drive the bottom woofers are not.  The hypex could not do much with them. All the hypex stuff I have heard has been just bad or overrated but each to his own. 









Phil caught me in mid-dip, damn-it!

My first day impressions : I tried to take my time a bit more, but what I visited:

504 / Command Performance AV / Raidho / Hegel / VPI Classic 4 / Luxman DSD dac : I'm biased because this is my dealer & I helped to at least shlep things there.  Jeff always takes a lot of pains to set up a room so it sounds good, including working with placement / cables / acoustic treatments / etc.  He's no slacker & the gear is first rate. Raidho's are eye wateringly expensive, but among the best I've heard and overall the sound is excellent.  But hear for yourself.

508 / VPI + Joseph Audio (Pulsars).  Also featuring VAS EL34 monoblocks.  Pulsar's always sound great.  My main problem is with room set up.  Speakers need to be full across length w/ gear in the back right niche, both to allow more rows / seating in the sweet-spot, and to help tame a bass boom (even after they've used bass traps).  Speakers are also set to far apart, creating too much discontinuity.  Sound otherwise has great mid-range still with decent detail & PRAT.  What you'd expect w/ Pulsar + an EL34 amp.

517 / Robyatt Audio. Quad 63's sound awesome.  I could find nothing to quibble about, even at the $5K asking price w/ stands (very useful so you can listen at reasonable seating height). I WANT!! Mayajima monoblocks sounded good, albeit at $20K for the pair, quite pricey.  Yeah, they're all hand built by a little Japanese elf.  Guy running the room is not afraid to stray from the audiophile war-horse tracks, which is refreshing. 

603 / Merrill + Channel D + Sanders.  Sound was a bit "harder" than I would like.  I don't think the Sander's like being driven that hard, or else the Merrill monoblocks need a bit more refinement.  Both the Sanders @ $12K and $14K a pair respectively are grossly overpriced.  Anyone heard of Magnepan + Wyred4Sound?   I learned A LOT from the Channel D guy both about my Pure Music software + other software they have which I'm considering + works w/ Pure Music (to do RTA / EQ to feed Pure Music).  PM in memory mode has been the most cost effective digital sound investment I've made.

608 / Everything Audio Network. By far the most useful visit so far - worth the admission just for this.  They have a "stack of DACs" which includes all the "hot" models : TEAC HDA1, Mytek, Hilo, Benchmark, and even a Parasound ZDAC fed into a Rogue Audio hybrid integrated & Legacy bookshelf speakers.  Media server is an Oppo 95.  Guy running the room has carefully level matched these DACs.  In the room was also Phila + Alan Silverman, the keynote speaker Saturday. 

He switched between all 5 + the Oppo w/ PCM and mostly redbook (no DSD even those most of these are capable).  Conclusion : they all virtually sounded THE SAME!  From $400 for the Parasound to up to close to $2K.  Both Alan & I had a slight preference for the TEAC, having a bit more "air". I think it's probably due to the Muse op-amps.  Fortunately that's also the cheapest DSD dac, at $850 retail (though reports are that +10% discounts are readily available).

My take away : if I was starting over I'd get an Oppo 105 both for sound + video & media server.  If I didn't need all those bells + whistles : the Teac.  I think we all agreed that you need to go to a much more expensive dac w/ a much better analog stage before you really start getting a substantially improved sound.  E.g. the $7500 retail Meitner.  Gotta say the Auralic dac (not shown but Command AV has it) @ $3500 retail is a very good middle step both for PCM & DSD. 

Lastly, the Rogue Audio w/ the Legacy speaker + Oppo as server + these dacs sounded damn fine.  I could be very happy with such as system.

610 / ModWright Instruments.  The "budget" room (if you can call a $5K integrated amp "budget").  I always complain about pricing though.  Sounded damn fine w/ modded Oppo 105.  My slight complaint is sound is a bit too "hard" / "hi-fi".  But that could also be a room or ac issue. Very good clean modern sound though.

806 / GT Audio Works. Smaller GT Audio hybrid planar + passive dynamic woofer speaker.  Very fine sound reminiscent to me of MMG's, but a bit rounder (in a good way) bottom end.  Heard gunned MMG's sound more linear, but not go down quite as deep. At the price I'd go Magnepan - but of course as a Magnepan owner I'd say that........

Most interesting of all though was absolutely amazing BG Radia subwoofer system.  Cleanest, deepest, fastest sub-bass I've ever heard.  Investigating these for myself.  If it were a bit cheaper, or I was less cheap, would be an automatic buy. 

808 / Woo Audio.  To me the best made / best value in high-end audio.  Too bad I'm not a headphone guy.  Beautifully built (in Brooklyn !) + sounding headphone amps at unbelievably low prices.  Really gives the lie to those saying that well made high end gear can't be done in the USA at reasonable price.  Of all the headphones, the Audeze LCD2 remain my favorites - even over the pricier LCD3.  Mini-Maggies on your head! Great set up w/ the laptops w/ same music so you can go around + compare.

810 / Synthesis + Pro-Ac.  Not bad, but not great : somewhat thin.  I think Synthesis does better w/ their cutesy lower power tubes amps both for sound quality, cosmetics, and price.  Last year the set-up sounded a bit better with these than the more powerful 100WPC Synthesis they were featuring.  Tube rolling issue perhaps?

817 / GT Audio, etc.  Triode Labs guy comped me a beer, so feel bad slamming the sound, but those GT Audio speakers are WAY too big for that room, causing ugly bass booming / rumble with the TT.  The $1800 italian cartridge on the Kuzuma table is SO bright with brass it literally hurt my ears.  I'm sure all these things could work so much better in another room. 

The BSG QOL Signal Completion Stage.  I'll just come out & say it : a "loudness switch" scam.  And an expensive one at that ($4K!).  Shame on BSG and shame on the reviewers keeping this one alive.

Have I held your interest this long..........?

Whew - didn't realize I had been to so many room until now.  And I thought I was taking it easy!

[dB Cooper]

Look at it another way. Who goes to such shows? Based on my view at the last Atlanta AXPONA, mostly upper-middle class men with disposable income. They're not there to see budget stuff. They're there mostly to gasp at exotics and marvel at cool finishes.

But some of those guys have kids who haven't reached "disposable income" status yet. I hadn't when I was 14 and I still managed to put together a pretty respectable little audio system for the time on a modest budget. My friends heard my  system and many of them went out and bought their own systems as a result. If the manufacturers- some of whom do make some reasonably priced equipment- were to show a little of it now and then, the kid tagging along with his dad might buy that rather than some POS plastic star wars shelf system at best buy. Many of the middle aged men you refer to got their start on systems like the one I had, bought at a local audio salon (remember those?) like the one I shopped at. To a large extent, neither the affordable system or the audio store you might be exposed to it at exist anymore for Junior. All there are are these shows. If you show him some rationally priced equipment here and there along with the six hundred dollar power cords, he and his friends might be more inclined to invest in the ecosystem now rather than late in life when they've accumulated enough to piss away six figures on an audio system. I don't think ANY audio system is worth that much, but to each his own.

Your example is a pretty good one, and there are a few exceptions like the Pioneer 22 speakers discussed elsewhere around these parts. In order for Junior to get interested in that stuff, however, he has to know that it exists. You can see it on the Interweb, but you can't listen to it there.

[JerryM]

The cost of gear is relevant, isn't it?

I bought my first car when I was 16. It was 1979, and I paid $300.00 for a 1967 Plymouth GTX.   My first apartment, a studio measuring 340 square feet, was $300.00 per month. My first truly 'high end' system cost $390.00; my dad loaned me his speakers for a time.

I was making $2.10 per hour. It took a LONG time to save up all of this money, and it took more than one job. But I had a bad ass car, a fine system, and my own place. If these things are relevant to a youngster now, they will find a way to make it work, today's high-end be damned. 

In any case, I sure wish I could have made it to the Show!!!

Have fun,

Jerry

[this_is_vv]

came back spending two days in CAF....

overall was ok....

will put my words later on this...

[DS-21]

But some of those guys have kids who haven't reached "disposable income" status yet. I hadn't when I was 14 and I still managed to put together a pretty respectable little audio system for the time on a modest budget.

My point is simply that someone so inclined today can do so, too. Easily, and get better sonic results than s/he could in the past. But any careful student of humanity needs to look at the existing incentive structures to understand human behavior. A show that's put on by hardcore hobbyists with audio dealer support isn't going to showcase those value goods. For one thing, they could take sales away from the higher-margin stuff. For another, consider that the fixed costs (schlepping stuff, system setup, etc.) are the same for inexpensive gear and expensive gear. So the natural bias for any rational audio parts dealer is "bring your 'best' stuff." It's just the utility-maximizing approach.

Also, say you're a speaker vender looking to make an impression and get an honest assessment of your product as it currently stands. You show up driving your new speakers with a $500 AVR. Showgoers (and press) will look down their noses, no matter how it sounds. Forums and show reports will talk idiot smack about the sound being limited by the resolution of the amp, as if "resolution" were even a thing with amplifiers! But if you drive them with $15k monoblocs, you will get more positive impressions.

Alternately, say you're an amp vender. If you want to add gloss to your brand, you'll use the most expensive and eye-catching speakers that you can find.

To a large extent, neither the affordable system or the audio store you might be exposed to it at exist anymore for Junior. All there are are these shows.

I grew up in an age when audio parts dealers had largely become con men's cesspools praying on the scientifically illiterate by pushing scams like boutique wires, green pens, fancy hockey pucks, etc. So I do not at all lament their disappearance.

At any rate, soapbox dismounted. Back to CAF. I'm not there, and if I were in the area I would be skipping it for Redskins training camp in Richmond anyway! I look forward to seeing more pictures and reading more impressions.

[Russell Dawkins]

The cost of gear is relevant, isn't it?

I bought my first car when I was 16. It was 1979, and I paid $300.00 for a 1967 Plymouth GTX.   My first apartment, a studio measuring 340 square feet, was $300.00 per month. My first truly 'high end' system cost $390.00; my dad loaned me his speakers for a time.

I was making $2.10 per hour. It took a LONG time to save up all of this money, and it took more than one job. But I had a bad ass car, a fine system, and my own place. If these things are relevant to a youngster now, they will find a way to make it work, today's high-end be damned. 

In any case, I sure wish I could have made it to the Show!!!

Have fun,

Jerry

Are you sure your apartment cost $300? At your hourly rate of income ($2.10 per hour, presumably before taxes) it would have taken 142 hours per month just to make rent! Ouch!

[JerryM]

Are you sure your apartment cost $300? At your hourly rate of income ($2.10 per hour, presumably before taxes) it would have taken 142 hours per month just to make rent! Ouch!

Two jobs and a paper route.   Looking back, cash from the paper route paid for a surprising amount of goodies. 

   

[topround]

I thought the Volti speakers had the best in show. Driven by the amazing Border Patrol amp it just was a huge soundfield of gorgeousness.
Nothing else I heard at the show approached the level they were at.