Digital Preamp

James Tanner · « **Reply #40 on:** 15 Oct 2012, 07:40 pm »

Quote from: terrycym on 15 Oct 2012, 07:37 pm

Maybe we're talking about two products here?
A stereo SP3 and a BDA with a volume control and a couple of analogue inputs(with HDMI though)

Yes I think that is a good evaluation.

James

RonCH · « **Reply #41 on:** 15 Oct 2012, 08:37 pm »

Quote from: James Tanner on 15 Oct 2012, 07:21 pm

Yes it appears that way - honestly I was thinking about a much more basic unit for our first effort which would be a BDA-2 with volume control and analog outputs. Some HDMI inputs and Balanced and single ended outputs.

James

I finding this thread very interesting. I realise that all I actually need now is a digital amplifier with analog (Home Theater) pass through.

But my question is: how good does a digital amplifier sound? We are broadly speaking about two options in this thread. An analog amplifier with a DAC, or a Digital Amplifier; which of these two options would have the better sound for the same price?

Regards

Ron

Phil · « **Reply #42 on:** 16 Oct 2012, 01:24 am »

The more simple approach -- DAC/Pre -- looks good to me, but if going the full monte how about a high-end version of this?

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/DSpeaker-Anti-Mode-8033-Dual-Core-review_361/Review.html

vegasdave · « **Reply #43 on:** 18 Oct 2012, 01:30 am »

Quote from: vegasdave on 14 Oct 2012, 11:41 am

How about a fully loaded analog and digital preamp with mm and mc phono, analog (or digital) eq, mono/stereo button, phase, dac, ht bypass, and all the bells and whistles for $7000 USD?

Anyone agree? Disagree?

Rimbaud · « **Reply #44 on:** 18 Oct 2012, 01:45 am »

vegasdave - That sounds like a primarily analog device with dac added on, similar to Bryston's current offerings. Given how long it will take this to come to market and it's intended product life once it does, I think you have to look forward to what is going to be a leading product three years from now. Since this is supposed to be a digital preamp I say go all the way and make it digital-only.

NAD is already there with the M51, and while of course it's not for everyone I'd call it an instant classic.

larevoj · « **Reply #45 on:** 18 Oct 2012, 02:09 am »

Quote from: vegasdave on 18 Oct 2012, 01:30 am

Anyone agree? Disagree?

Would it be competitive to this - http://www.tactlab.com/Products/RCS22XP/index.html

skunark · « **Reply #46 on:** 18 Oct 2012, 03:18 am »

Quote from: vegasdave on 18 Oct 2012, 01:30 am

Anyone agree? Disagree?

Disagree.... Not that interested in feeding an analog source through a digital preamp. I would rather just pick up a dedicated ADC for the LPs and rip them once, then sell the ADC... or just stick with an analog frontend.

terrycym · « **Reply #47 on:** 18 Oct 2012, 10:46 am »

Personally, I have two preamps, an analogue one with a phono stage and a home cinema one with a DAC and multi-channel which I feed in to the analogue preamp threough the loop-through connections.

I don't see the point of a mega expensive stereo digital pre-amp, sorry. I wouldn't buy one either.
The SP3 with an optional phono input makes more sense to me or a cheaper, simpler stereo DAC with a couple of analogue inputs which feed a buffered volume control.

vegasdave · « **Reply #48 on:** 19 Oct 2012, 10:32 am »

Quote from: Rimbaud on 18 Oct 2012, 01:45 am

vegasdave - That sounds like a primarily analog device with dac added on, similar to Bryston's current offerings. Given how long it will take this to come to market and it's intended product life once it does, I think you have to look forward to what is going to be a leading product three years from now. Since this is supposed to be a digital preamp I say go all the way and make it digital-only.

NAD is already there with the M51, and while of course it's not for everyone I'd call it an instant classic.

Well, what I was trying to say was a fully loaded preamp with full digital functionality. Of course it won't be digital only, however.

vegasdave · « **Reply #49 on:** 19 Oct 2012, 10:33 am »

Quote from: larevoj on 18 Oct 2012, 02:09 am

Would it be competitive to this - http://www.tactlab.com/Products/RCS22XP/index.html

I'm not sure what that is exactly.

vegasdave · « **Reply #50 on:** 19 Oct 2012, 10:34 am »

Quote from: skunark on 18 Oct 2012, 03:18 am

Disagree.... Not that interested in feeding an analog source through a digital preamp. I would rather just pick up a dedicated ADC for the LPs and rip them once, then sell the ADC... or just stick with an analog frontend.

I agree. The digital and analog sections would be separate.

vegasdave · « **Reply #51 on:** 19 Oct 2012, 10:34 am »

Quote from: terrycym on 18 Oct 2012, 10:46 am

Personally, I have two preamps, an analogue one with a phono stage and a home cinema one with a DAC and multi-channel which I feed in to the analogue preamp threough the loop-through connections.

I don't see the point of a mega expensive stereo digital pre-amp, sorry. I wouldn't buy one either.
The SP3 with an optional phono input makes more sense to me or a cheaper, simpler stereo DAC with a couple of analogue inputs which feed a buffered volume control.

Not a bad idea.

skunark · « **Reply #52 on:** 19 Oct 2012, 07:23 pm »

Quote from: vegasdave on 19 Oct 2012, 10:34 am

I agree. The digital and analog sections would be separate.

You are essentially describing something like either an SP3 or the BP26+BDA with phono-pre? Most of the time, I would rather not pay for the analog stage if I'm not going to use it, hence a stereo digital amp. I do like the idea of an analog passthrough for HT, but I don't have any immediate use for it, but i clearly see the value of it for any pre-amp and it allows me to keep my options open down the road.

For a digital preamp, i believe most of the magic is done in the digital domain including the volume control in the digital domain, but I can also see advantages of a single output stage tightly tuned to a quality analog volume control. To support analog sources, you would need a quality ADC, and me being selfish here, I don't want to pay for that. If you allowed multiple sources to feed into an analog volume control, i don't see how that is any different than an SP3 or BP26+BDA.

srb · « **Reply #53 on:** 19 Oct 2012, 07:35 pm »

Quote from: skunark on 19 Oct 2012, 07:23 pm

To support analog sources, you would need a quality ADC, and me being selfish here, I don't want to pay for that.

You only need an ADC if you either want to digitally record analog sources or perform digital volume control on them. A more elegant solution would be one similar to the Benchmark DAC-2 HGC with hybrid volume control where digital sources are attentuated by a high-bit digital volume control and analog sources by an analog volume control.

Steve

skunark · « **Reply #54 on:** 19 Oct 2012, 08:03 pm »

Quote from: srb on 19 Oct 2012, 07:35 pm

You only need an ADC if you either want to digitally record analog sources or perform digital volume control on them. A more elegant solution would be one similar to the Benchmark DAC-2 HGC with hybrid volume control where digital sources are attenuated by a high-bit digital volume control and analog sources by an analog volume control.

Steve

It's really all about features and compromises in the design... and perhaps I am selfish here, but i'm just after the digital half and feel that the BP26 and BDA covers the basis better than a hybrid design like benchmark's dac. I haven't directly compared the BP26 to the DAC1 Pre or even the NAD M2, but I have auditioned them all and clearly feel BP26 is the easy winner (ignoring my usage gripes with the BP26).

Perhaps my wish will never come, but I do want a simple digital pre-amp or AVR, stereo or multi-channel, that has several HDMI inputs, a few digital inputs and HDMI output with ARC in a 1U or 2U sized chassis with full function remote. Definitely don't want/need component or composite video inputs or analog inputs. Bonuses would include analog passthrough for HT, 12V trigger, digital out, headphone...

Jim

Stu Pitt · « **Reply #55 on:** 19 Oct 2012, 11:26 pm »

I know I posted previously in this thread about what I'd like in a digital preamp, but the more I think about it, the more I question the actual point of one. The only point I come to is eliminating a box. If you put a volume control on the BDA, what true advantage have you gained? You've eliminated the BP26, but is ther truly any sonic gain by doing so?

The end result would have to sound better than a BP26/BDA combo IMO.

I also don't like the idea of volume control in the digital domain. That tells me that the digital signal is being altered, ie bits are being added, removed, or substituted to achieve a specific volume. Shouldn't the signal remain as pure as possible?

I strongly contemplated the Naim Uniti. It's a great sounding all-in-one product - integrated amp, radio and Internet tuner, CD player, streamer and DAC. Why did I ultimately pass? What parts of it will be truly useful in 10 years? 15 years? 20 years? I saw an 8-track receiver on a TV show, and it hit me - the Uniti will become that receiver in a short enough amount of time. As wireless stuff improves, the Internet tuner and streamer will become obsolete. When the CD dies, there goes that function (the again, is a CD drawer really that necessary with a streamer?). When high-res gets, um, higher, that'll be obsolete too. A short term product that'll be good enough for a decade or so.

Meanwhile, my B60 is 13 years young. A great straight forward integrated amp has a far longer shelf life than any all-in-one digital product does. When my Rega DAC becomes outdated, I'll replace it without having to scrap everything or have a bunch of useless features still on the integrated. When my Apple TV becomes obsolete, my B60 will still be there ready for the next big thing in sources.

But I'm looking at this from the perspective of a guy who buys stuff for the long-haul, not from the perspective of a guy who buys and sells gear constantly. Not that there's anything wrong with buying and selling.

Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe a digital preamp will sound far better than a regular preamp with a DAC connected to it.

srb · « **Reply #56 on:** 20 Oct 2012, 12:17 am »

When DACs and digital volume controls were 16-bit, any amount of attenuation resulted in loss on 16/44.1 material. Subsequent 24-bit DACs and volume controls allowed for 8 bits or 48dB of attenuation before any loss on 16/44.1 material.

Now that 32-bit DACs and volume controls are plentiful, you can still get 48dB of attenuation on high-resolution 24-bit files and 96dB of attenuation on 16-bit files without loss. Technology marches on, and the next wave of DACs and processors will be 64-bit, not because anyone expects music files to increase to 64-bit, but because it will allow for as much attenuation as is needed as well as other kinds of digital manipulation without apparent loss even on 32-bit material.

If you have no analog sources, a BDA-2 or a new digital preamp (implemented with essentially lossless volume controls) that have the required sonic qualities may be more budget friendly than the current combination of a BP-26/MPS-2 and a BDA-1 at $6900.

Steve

Alphonse · « **Reply #57 on:** 25 Aug 2013, 06:54 pm »

James, Is product this still on the radar? A stereo version of SP3 or some sort of stereo Dac/digital pre with hdmi in out?

NAD M51 is the only product I have seen like this.

http://nadelectronics.com/products/masters-series/M51-Direct-Digital-DAC

Thanks,

Al

James Tanner · « **Reply #58 on:** 26 Aug 2013, 02:47 pm »

Quote from: Alphonse on 25 Aug 2013, 06:54 pm

James, Is product this still on the radar? A stereo version of SP3 or some sort of stereo Dac/digital pre with hdmi in out?

NAD M51 is the only product I have seen like this.

http://nadelectronics.com/products/masters-series/M51-Direct-Digital-DAC

Thanks,

Al

Hi Al,

Yes we are still looking at it but HDMI has some jitter issues so we may not go there. We may just integrate the BDA-2 with a BP26 concept.

james

R. Daneel · « **Reply #59 on:** 26 Aug 2013, 04:49 pm »

Hi James!

I think it's a good idea. However, integrating a preamplifier of your quality into the BDA2 might make the whole concept a bit too expensive for a wider public. It is reasonable to assume that you wish to make the whole DAC concept more appealing because other manufacturers offer integrated preamplifiers as well.

I can see a lot of reasons why the BDA2 with volume control would be appealing to some but it would inevitably mean higher cost. What is the price range you are thinking about, 3500-4000$? If yes, then I think you are up against some tough competition and while that is not a problem considering your vast technical expertise as a company, people tend to pick what they like to see or what is well advertised and are highly influenced by media and that would work against you. I am sorry to say that but if everyone was smart, everyone would own a Bryston.

What I think could work is something more integrated - perhaps a D/A converter with a volume control and a headphone amplifier. This component< could be made half-width as it seems to be quite popular. A couple of digital inputs - an AES, 2xSPDIF, 1xTOS and a high resolution USB would be more than enough as far as inputs go. The targeted clientele would have no use for analog inputs. As for outputs, a pair of single-ended and balanced line level outputs with a volume knob and a separate volume knob for the single-ended headphone output on the front. If this product would be priced at 2000-2500$, I think it would be very successful.

Cheers!
Antun