Amp suggestions for Totem Model 1 please

asliarun · « **on:** 2 Oct 2012, 08:19 pm »

Hi everyone,

Can anyone suggest an amp that will be able to drive Totem Model 1s?
These speakers are hard to drive (my Tripath Topping amp is totally inadequate).

Is it reasonable to expect to get a decent sounding high current amp for $200-$300?
I'm also open to getting a power amp and buying used.

If nothing in this price will work, I will wait for a while to save up, so please give amp suggestions even if it is more expensive.

Thanks!
Arun

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #1 on:** 3 Oct 2012, 01:08 am »

Hey, welcome to AC!

Do you need an integrated amp, or do you have a preamp to stick in there? The reason I ask is that there are quite a few power amps that would do the trick at that price, B&K, Adcom, Rotel, Parasound, maybe even some of the Onkyo amps. If you need an integrated the price for that much power goes up a bit. You might have to drop to NAD, HK, an older Marantz, something like that.

asliarun · « **Reply #2 on:** 3 Oct 2012, 03:24 am »

Thanks, Letitroll! I don't have a preamp, but if I can get a power amp in this budget, I was thinking of getting a real simple passive preamp like the Luminous Audio Axiom.

I have another question - if I don't get a preamp right away, can I hook up the power amp directly to my Squeezebox Classic (which is my source) and use the Squeezebox to control volume?

Out of the power amps you mentioned, which ones would be suitable for a hard-to-drive bright-ish speaker like the Totem Model 1s?

Thanks once again,
Arun

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #3 on:** 3 Oct 2012, 03:46 pm »

Or if you need something active rather than passive you might try this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/400088510114?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 Not great, but decent for the money. The Luminous Audio Axiom will prolly sound better, but you have to like the passive preamp sound, generally sweeter with less dynamics than an active preamp. Do you like Rock or solo Jazz vocalists?

I don't have a Squeezebox but I'm pretty sure no, you can't use it without at least an attenuator in line, something like the Endler would work pretty well: http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4c5pt/id2.html (You need two, one for each channel)

Actually, the best power amp for you application is this one: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=76400.0 You have to have a minor amount of DIY skills or know someone who does. Also you need to wade through the 175 pages of posts to get up on all of the problems and solutions in the build, mostly heat and grounding issues.

Of the ones I previously mentioned, older B&K's have a very nice sound and are cheaper than the newer models. Look for a ST202, ST2020, ST260 or one of the older Reference series to give you enough power. I would avoid the classic ST140 as it's a very nice amp, but only 70 watts 8 ohms.

asliarun · « **Reply #4 on:** 3 Oct 2012, 04:34 pm »

Thank you so much, Leititroll!

This is very useful advice.

asliarun · « **Reply #5 on:** 3 Oct 2012, 04:42 pm »

Sorry, I forgot to add a couple of things in my previous comment.

I mostly listen to rock (all kinds). Will that be a problem with a passive preamp?

If I were to consider integrated amps in a higher price point, what should I look at?
Based on what you are saying and what my pre-power will probably look like, I am now thinking that I should go for an integrated as the pre+power combo will come to the same price anyway, and an integrated amp will be easier to setup, manage, and resell later.

ltr317 · « **Reply #6 on:** 4 Oct 2012, 02:13 am »

Only the early B & K ST 140 had 70 wpc. I owned one of the later ones which had 105 wpc.

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #7 on:** 4 Oct 2012, 03:40 am »

ltr is correct, I had forgotten that. I believe they increased the bias on the output transistors to get the added 8 ohm power rating, like they did on the ST202+ vs the regular ST202. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the basic amp was essentially unchanged. B&K affectionados have strong feelings on which variation sounds best. Something like the ones with the rack handles are better than the same amp without, who knows, whatever. B&K was a small company that made running changes without notifying anybody, but they kept pretty good records of those changes. There was a new company that bought the leftovers from the defunct B&K, they kept the records, but I don't know if that company is in existence anymore, they were suppose to have gone under. But I digress, the OP is looking for integrated's now.

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #8 on:** 4 Oct 2012, 04:38 am »

Quote from: asliarun on 3 Oct 2012, 04:42 pm

Sorry, I forgot to add a couple of things in my previous comment.

I mostly listen to rock (all kinds). Will that be a problem with a passive preamp?

If I were to consider integrated amps in a higher price point, what should I look at?
Based on what you are saying and what my pre-power will probably look like, I am now thinking that I should go for an integrated as the pre+power combo will come to the same price anyway, and an integrated amp will be easier to setup, manage, and resell later.

All things being equal, you should get more bang for your buck with an integrated vs a pre-power combo, with perhaps better sound coming from the latter. But things are rarely equal. When buying later model used components, integrateds seem to hold their value more so you end up with about an equal tradeoff pricewise, therefore you're often better off going for the better sound quality. Additionally, high power intergrateds are rare or expensive, in other words, lots of very nice moderately priced 35-50 watt units from Marantz, Camdridge Audio, Creek, Rotel etc., but the price goes up exponentially when you get to 85-100 watts. Conversely, the low end for separate power amps is around 100 watts, so more power is a lot cheaper. But you have to factor in how much preamp you want.

Also something we glossed over, when you said Tripath I assumed you meant the 7-15 watt variants, is this correct? There are of course 50 watt Tripath amps available for under $200, these are really more like 30 watt in real word terms, but more powerful nonetheless. BTW all of these power ratings I've been quoting are for 8 ohm and your speakers are 4 ohm, which will up the rating, and real world power depending on the amp, but I was keeping all things on a level playing field for easy reference. Which leads to what I wanted to say, you should decide what your needs are regarding driving power. Your speakers are recommended to run with 30-120 watts. This means very little but gives us a ballpark and why a 7 watt class T won't do it. There's not much difference between a 50 watt and 85 watt amp in driving power or loudness, there is a significant difference between a 35 watt amp and a 150 watt amp.

So, what to get. As much power and quality as you can afford, without sweating about 20 or 30 watts difference. For new, pretty much the 35-50 watt integrateds from Vincent, Marantz, Cambrdge Audio, NAD, Onkyo, Music Hall, maybe Harmon Kardon or Yamaha. Used on eBay or A-gon you might find some classic American iron at bargain prices, power amps above the 100 watt threshold.

rockn · « **Reply #9 on:** 4 Oct 2012, 05:37 pm »

I once owned the Model 1s, I ran them with a Aragon 4004 and then a 8008. they really came to life with these amps. They come up used from time to time on agon. They like power which I"m sure you've heard.

asliarun · « **Reply #10 on:** 5 Oct 2012, 01:31 pm »

Thanks once again, Letitroll. I've been learning a lot from your comments. To confirm, my Tripath amp is a Topping TP20 MK2. It is supposed to output 20W on a 4 ohm load, but the quality start degrading much sooner (probably about 7-10 clean watts). In any case, I did not push the amp beyond the 2 o clock position as I was scared I would damage the drivers. It sounded surprisingly nice on instrumentals and female vocals, but absolutely terrible for rock.

I will keep an eye out for a used NAD like the 326BEE (I'm assuming that the 316BEE might be underpowered), or some of the other brands that you have mentioned. Should I be thinking about warm/bright etc. or should I just go get pretty much any integrated amp in the wattage range of 35-50W? I guess I will only know for sure when I actually listen to the combination too.

Rockn, thanks for your suggestion too. At this point, I think I will start with an integrated, and then try out a pre-power combination a bit later.

ltr317 · « **Reply #11 on:** 5 Oct 2012, 05:17 pm »

Quote from: asliarun on 5 Oct 2012, 01:31 pm

Thanks once again, Letitroll. I've been learning a lot from your comments. To confirm, my Tripath amp is a Topping TP20 MK2. It is supposed to output 20W on a 4 ohm load, but the quality start degrading much sooner (probably about 7-10 clean watts). In any case, I did not push the amp beyond the 2 o clock position as I was scared I would damage the drivers. It sounded surprisingly nice on instrumentals and female vocals, but absolutely terrible for rock.

I will keep an eye out for a used NAD like the 326BEE (I'm assuming that the 316BEE might be underpowered), or some of the other brands that you have mentioned. Should I be thinking about warm/bright etc. or should I just go get pretty much any integrated amp in the wattage range of 35-50W? I guess I will only know for sure when I actually listen to the combination too.

Rockn, thanks for your suggestion too. At this point, I think I will start with an integrated, and then try out a pre-power combination a bit later.

Yes, you will ultimately have to decide on the type of sound you want; whether it be bright, neutral or warm will be up to you. So, it's best to start in the beginning with a low price (either new or used) integrated amp or receiver and live with that "sound" for a while. Once you determine the tonal balance you like, then start listening for the level of other sonic qualities like sound staging, detail, etc. you would like as well.

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #12 on:** 6 Oct 2012, 12:08 am »

You might consider a brick and mortar dealer that offers home trials of equipment. You may or may not spend a little more than online, but the service might be worth it in the long run, saving you trial and error money buying and selling components online. You could find out if 35-40 watts is enough for you, and if you have to move upmarket they may have used or demo available at a discount. Any decent dealer should have at least two or three brands to choose from.

bardamu · « **Reply #13 on:** 6 Oct 2012, 01:50 am »

Hello,
Some time ago i was planning to buy a totem and combine it with a virtue class D amp . But i was told by Virtue that totem was one of the brands that didn't match well with their amps.
I know that Rega matches well with the Totems.
In the end i did go for a virtue sensation and go for other speakers.
Good luck, Edward

herman · « **Reply #14 on:** 6 Oct 2012, 04:30 am »

Initially, I ran my model 1 sigs off a Parasound 1200mk2 and now a Threshold sa4e.

Preamp: I started with a Parasound php850 (with tube buffer between source and preamp), then a Modwright 9se and finally a 36.5.

Source: Began with a Squeezebox Duet + external dac and then a Transporter.

With these combinations I never found the mod1 sigs to be bright but I've always chosen equipment on the warm side of neutral - personal preference.

The Transporter and Duet provide volume control but at the expense of detail. If you're in a pinch, you can go this route and forego a preamp.

According to the wiki, the Squeezebox classic has volume control as well: http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Connecting_directly_to_a_power_amplifier

My recommendation to you... decide if you prefer warm, neutral or a brighter sound and then spend the next few weeks researching options. If you're immune to upgrade-itis, stick with your original budget. If you know this is the start of an addiction, don't settle. Save your nickels and dimes until you can afford (within reason of course) what you really want.

If I were to do it all over, I'd search for a near mint vintage Pioneer 1250sx receiver and call it a day.

Cheers,
Herman

asliarun · « **Reply #15 on:** 7 Oct 2012, 02:36 am »

Thanks, Herman and Bardamu, and thanks once again, Letitroll.

I am in the process of getting a Parasound New Classic 2125. I should be able to set it up by late next week.
I've never heard the amp with my speakers, but I think it should sounds okay since the amp is high current and I think it should be able to drive my speakers.

I'm also thinking of going ahead and buying the HLLY AMK II amp as you previously suggested. Will that be a good combination for rock?
Can you please give me some background on this preamp - will it affect the sound in any way?

Thanks,
Arun

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Oct 2012, 03:55 pm »

Wow, a great choice of power amp, I assume used as the retail price is way over your stated budget. A good, stiff power supply with plenty of current available will easily drive your Totems.

As far as the preamp, you may want to upgrade someday, but according to this thread it's pretty darn good for $120.00: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=88425.0

Here's the company web page for the unit:
http://www.hllyhifi.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=84&products_id=229&language=en

asliarun · « **Reply #17 on:** 7 Oct 2012, 07:50 pm »

Thanks, Letitroll. Yes, I bought a used one for $350 from Audiogon. It is on its way so I haven't done the transaction yet.

Yes, I think I will go for the HLLY AMK Mark 2. The price has gone up though. With shipping, I think it will come to almost $200.

There's also a shop here locally that is selling an old NAD 1020a for 90 bucks. I have no clue whether an old preamp would work with my system or not.

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #18 on:** 7 Oct 2012, 10:03 pm »

The NAD 1020 will be softer and less detailed than more modern pre-amps, but is wonderfully musical and will mate very well with the Parasound. It also has a very nice phono pre-amp if you ever want to add vinyl to the mix. The age of the unit and if the capacitors have been updated would be the only concern. Make sure to hook it up before purchase or at least a money back if DOA guarantee. $90 is a teeny bit high, I would offer maybe $75, I think it will be accepted. On a side note I bought a NAD 3020B, the same preamp inside an integrated amp, for $100 around 1980 and could easily sell it for that today. Except for some capacitors replaced at $50 it still works perfectly.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #19 on:** 8 Oct 2012, 12:31 am »

I ran Totem Rokk speakers for 10 years in the mid 90's. I used a Sugden integrated. An excellent synergy.

Your Squeezebox can absolutely run directly into a power amp, I did that for close to 10 years too. Of course the squeezebox was my sole source, so it worked well for me.

For the house Totem sound, brands frequently recommended are Sugden, Rega, Bryston and NAD.

I also ran the Rokk's using some tripath Teac amps back around 8 years ago, many threads here by me about the excellent sound combination.

I would consider one of the older Panasonic receivers with digital amps in them too, those can be found for under $100, and may surprise you.

Gainclone amps will do well too, as will that digital amp already referenced above.

Hope the HLLY works out though, that should do fine.