[rhodkin]

For all those audiophiles out there, please forgive my faux pas, but what is the deal with vinyl? Why are some people willing to fork out sooo much money for a fancy turntable and tonearm?

And also, is this generally considered of better, worse or different audio quality to analogue tape?

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

Simply vinyl , IME, sounds much much better than any digital music media (except Blu-ray HD stereo music which I have not yet compared vs vinyl) currently available, e.g. CD-audio & DVD-audio. For those musical
sound comes first, like yours truly, vinyl is the way to go.

Of course, vinyl is NOT an easy 'beast' to tame down. It is not an easy hit-a-button-to-play job like any digital music media. If one puts convenience first, please forget vinyl, OK? End of further discussion on this topic. Musical sound or conveninece, up to you, buddie.

Also I don't agree with you vinly really NEEDs very costly exotic turntables & tonearms in order to get good vinyl sound. This is a very WRONG hearsay about vinyl. It ALL depends how one handle it & match it with the rest of one's sound system. Of course, it is not an easy job like CD-audio where no need of any detail adjustment to get one's record player sounds really good.

One day, a music lover (who owns & plays a baby grand piano & a electric organ in his home) invited me to his home to 'show off' his audio equipment. What caught my eyes was a cheapie old record player incorporated with its own small SS receiver in his kitchen area where he uses it as a background music provider while working on his papers at the breakfast table.

I put it on playing a classical LP & found it sound pretty nice in impressing me musically than his big audio stuff in his family room. I spent most of my time there in playing vinlys on that old record player in his kitchen instead. We enjoy music with our ears not by watching how gorgeous the audio gear looks.

FYI, my record player  is only an old Thoren 125II TT (circa 1975s) playing many hundreds of classical LPs, most most of them were recyled from thrift stores for 75cents a pop on Friday sale. Given proper attention in adjusting the TT PROPERLY & matching nicely with the audio chain down the road, I enjoy my music bigtime, from the Beatles to Pavarotti & Victoria de los Angeles.

I never spent any real decent money on my vinyl & yet I am such a happy musical camper!

c-J

[Photon46]

The most compelling reason for someone who is interested in the entire history of recorded music is that a vast number of recordings have never been issued on cd. I don't really know exactly how many classical lp's I own that are still not on cd, but it it is not an insignificant number. The second reason is that if you are looking for the best possible sounding version of a particular recording, that option is often a vinyl lp. Not always, but often. Even with recent releases this can be true. I just bought the new Dead Can Dance release "Anastasis" on vinyl and cd. There's no contest, the vinyl version is superior by a large margin.

However, if I hadn't already been buying vinyl for forty plus years, all this might not compel me to jump into vinyl now. I bought most of my collection before the fairly recent huge jump in prices for quality used lps I've seen in my area. No more frequent .99 - 2.99 bargains like I used to get on every trip to the stores. Competition now for used stuff is fierce compared to five years ago. My favorite Ebay seller of classical lps now gets three times the bid price for things today compared to two-three years ago.

[Elizabeth]

I quit vinyl backaround 1987 or so. (and so did 90% of ALL audiophiles..)  I got back in around 1995 (??) anyway, I just found it was worthwhile to collect used LPs as well as CDs. (Good used Lps used to be cheap, now, they are too expensive. Good thing I got all those old ones I want...)
I have  two nice TTs etc.and 6,000 LPs. I have to say vinyl is neither superior nor inferior to CDs. They are just a little differerent, with different pluses and minuses.
I enjoy buying used vinyl as i have several used sources locally, and can find plenty to interest me locally.
The person who has to buy online should forget vinyl!!!!!! It is too expensive to buy only long distance. (this is if you are a cheapskate like me, if you have plenty to spend, then ignore this comment)

I have many many duplicates between CD and LP, and enjoy both.
For a new to vinyl person, the ONLY reason to get into it is novelty. It can be fun. Especially if you only really used an ipod. The physical aspect can be interesting.
If you are only wanting 'better sound', but never had Lps before. Run do not hide.. Go buy a better DAC or  something.. The folks who make all these claims that Lps sound so much better than digital just never had a decent digital setup. (OR they love the flaws in vinyl, and hate the flaws in digital..) Personally  i think the folks who constantly shout out how wonderful vinyl is are crazy.. Now obviously I am interested in vinyl, just not some nutcase over it.
All you nutcases feel free to blast me. LOL.

[rhodkin]

I see what you're saying guys. Definitely interesting information to chew on.

I am mostly dealing with live sound myself so vinyl isn't an option. We do use some lovely Studer A-80s with ML cards at the studio I work at to mix down onto, so I can definitely get into the analogue over digital argument. We also have a wonderful 80 channel analogue Neve mixboard. You can't fault it--so long as you have a decent technician to keep up the maintenance!

[vinyl_lady]

I quit vinyl backaround 1987 or so. (and so did 90% of ALL audiophiles..) 

For a new to vinyl person, the ONLY reason to get into it is novelty. It can be fun. Especially if you only really used an ipod. The physical aspect can be interesting.
If you are only wanting 'better sound', but never had Lps before. Run do not hide.. Go buy a better DAC or  something.. The folks who make all these claims that Lps sound so much better than digital just never had a decent digital setup. (OR they love the flaws in vinyl, and hate the flaws in digital..) Personally  i think the folks who constantly shout out how wonderful vinyl is are crazy.. Now obviously I am interested in vinyl, just not some nutcase over it.
All you nutcases feel free to blast me. LOL.

I guess I'm one of the 10% as I never stopped listening to vinyl. I've been listening to vinyl since the late 50's. I stopped buying for a while because it became almost impossible to find new vinyl in the U.S. in early 90's. As to better sound, I'm in the camp that vinyl almost always sounds better--more natural, more real, more "live," more organic if you will. I have both a decent vinyl set up and a decent digital set up. On the digital side I have had an Arcam A-9; a Denon 3910 as a transport thorugh a Musical Fidelity X-DACv8 and now an Oppo 83 with a ModWright tube modification on the analog stage. My vinyl rig is an SME 20/2 with an SME IV.Vi tonearm, a Lyra Skala cartridge and an Art Audio Vinyl Reference phonostage. To my ears, vinyl sounds "better" virtually every time I compare a CD and vinyl. This is why I listen to vinyl 95% of the time.

Laura

[FullRangeMan]

I quit vinyl backaround 1987 or so. (and so did 90% of ALL audiophiles..)  I got back in around 1995 (??) anyway, I just found it was worthwhile to collect used LPs as well as CDs. (Good used Lps used to be cheap, now, they are too expensive. Good thing I got all those old ones I want...)
I have  two nice TTs etc.and 6,000 LPs. I have to say vinyl is neither superior nor inferior to CDs. They are just a little differerent, with different pluses and minuses.
I enjoy buying used vinyl as i have several used sources locally, and can find plenty to interest me locally.
The person who has to buy online should forget vinyl!!!!!! It is too expensive to buy only long distance. (this is if you are a cheapskate like me, if you have plenty to spend, then ignore this comment)

I have many many duplicates between CD and LP, and enjoy both.
For a new to vinyl person, the ONLY reason to get into it is novelty. It can be fun. Especially if you only really used an ipod. The physical aspect can be interesting.
If you are only wanting 'better sound', but never had Lps before. Run do not hide.. Go buy a better DAC or  something.. The folks who make all these claims that Lps sound so much better than digital just never had a decent digital setup. (OR they love the flaws in vinyl, and hate the flaws in digital..) Personally  i think the folks who constantly shout out how wonderful vinyl is are crazy.. Now obviously I am interested in vinyl, just not some nutcase over it.
All you nutcases feel free to blast me. LOL.

Great post!!
This is the first realistic review about the vinyl format I have see in this site and abroad.
Not to mention the vinyl omnipresent noises and the wear/abrasion, which the vinyl fans had amnesia about.
Congratulations!!

[neobop]

For all those audiophiles out there, please forgive my faux pas, but what is the deal with vinyl? Why are some people willing to fork out sooo much money for a fancy turntable and tonearm?

And also, is this generally considered of better, worse or different audio quality to analogue tape?

It's like most other things that hobbyist get into.  Why are some people willing to fork over $300,000 for a Lamborghini?  You can buy a CD transport for $25,000 and easily as much for a DAC, probably way more.  People buy what they like.  Why not?  Some people like records, whether they prefer analog to digital, or not.  I doubt if 90% of audiophiles abandoned their record players in 1987, at least not the ones that I saw.  There were many that were anxious for a more convenient, less delicate medium, but if you heard CDs and players back in '87 you'd have to be deaf to accept that as a music facsimile.

Analog tape?  Really too general a question to answer. Reel to reel, cassette, 8 track, tape hiss, noise reduction         Tapes stretch and deteriorate.  Sometimes there's print through.  If you ever heard a master tape or dub in good shape, played on a good system, you'd shit yourself.  Maybe analog is more hassle but it's also more fun and that's why it's growing. 
neo

Edit: Just about to post this and I now see you're familiar with RTR tape.  There are a whole lot of people that think that records are superior to digital.  Digital has gotten much better, but still.....  I won't debate the issue.  We've had some really obnoxious threads around here that included people who frame the question so that opposing views are crazy or nutcases.  I might be crazy, but I know what live music sounds like.

[jimdgoulding]

The most compelling reason for someone who is interested in the entire history of recorded music is that a vast number of recordings have never been issued on cd. I don't really know exactly how many classical lp's I own that are still not on cd, but it it is not an insignificant number. The second reason is that if you are looking for the best possible sounding version of a particular recording, that option is often a vinyl lp. Not always, but often. Even with recent releases this can be true. I just bought the new Dead Can Dance release "Anastasis" on vinyl and cd. There's no contest, the vinyl version is superior by a large margin.

However, if I hadn't already been buying vinyl for forty plus years, all this might not compel me to jump into vinyl now. I bought most of my collection before the fairly recent huge jump in prices for quality used lps I've seen in my area. No more frequent .99 - 2.99 bargains like I used to get on every trip to the stores. Competition now for used stuff is fierce compared to five years ago. My favorite Ebay seller of classical lps now gets three times the bid price for things today compared to two-three years ago.

A man after my own heart.

[Photon46]

Great post!!
Not to mention the vinyl omnipresent noises and the wear/abrasion, which the vinyl fans had amnesia about.
Congratulations!!

Once you reach a certain level of quality in your playback equipment and if you collect clean copies of any given lp and you use a good record cleaning machine, the noise and wear issues are moot in my experience. Someone whose only experience with vinyl was with dirty records and cheap 70's era equipment who hears a modern vinyl system playing clean records is going to be surprised at the lack of noise. Everyone who listens to my system remarks on the lack of noise/ticks/pops/etc. Now this isn't to say that vinyl is ever going to have a 100db signal to noise ratio like digital, but in practical application, the level of apparent background noise is so minimal it's seldom noticeable (given a quiet stylus profile, clean records in good condition, etc.) Wear is a non existent issue in my experience, at least once I started paying attention to cleanliness and good set-up procedure. I suppose that if you play an lp with OCD compulsiveness over and over, wear will be a factor. However, I don't play any lp, even my favorites, more than once a month probably. Even very frequently played lps from the seventies that I took good care of play with minimal noise and have no audible degradation.

That said, I think Elizabeth's take on getting into vinyl is pretty much spot on for MOST listeners. If you've got deep pockets and time on your hands to work at acquiring a collection, I still think vinyl offers some unique sonic attributes that are alluring. Digital playback has gotten so much better in the last decade, the gap vis-a-vis vinyl has definitely shrunk.

[FullRangeMan]

Once you reach a certain level of quality in your playback equipment and if you collect clean copies of any given lp and you use a good record cleaning machine, the noise and wear issues are moot in my experience. Someone whose only experience with vinyl was with dirty records and cheap 70's era equipment who hears a modern vinyl system playing clean records is going to be surprised at the lack of noise. Everyone who listens to my system remarks on the lack of noise/ticks/pops/etc. Now this isn't to say that vinyl is ever going to have a 100db signal to noise ratio like digital, but in practical application, the level of apparent background noise is so minimal it's seldom noticeable (given a quiet stylus profile, clean records in good condition, etc.) Wear is a non existent issue in my experience, at least once I started paying attention to cleanliness and good set-up procedure. I suppose that if you play an lp with OCD compulsiveness over and over, wear will be a factor. However, I don't play any lp, even my favorites, more than once a month probably. Even very frequently played lps from the seventies that I took good care of play with minimal noise and have no audible degradation.

That said, I think Elizabeth's take on getting into vinyl is pretty much spot on for MOST listeners. If you've got deep pockets and time on your hands to work at acquiring a collection, I still think vinyl offers some unique sonic attributes that are alluring. Digital playback has gotten so much better in the last decade, the gap vis-a-vis vinyl has definitely shrunk.

Thanks for these detailed infos, I unaware the situation now is this good.
I even feel happy for you guys the overall situation improved.

I had some senior friends vinyl lovers, they are unlettered in audio.
Could you inform me what is the most silent running stylus type??
I will suggest it to them.
Thanks in advance

[Delta Wave]

For me vinyl almost always sounds better than digital. With vinyl, you have an analog signal... a true sine wave that is organic and easily processed by the human brain. Your only have to overcome a mechanical alignment and a signal path (including proper equalization & loading).
With digital you have a stepped on/off version of a sine wave. You have filters, conversions, sample rates, jitter, reflectivity (for CDs), clocking, etc. And if you've ever heard any type of embellished digital noise you know it's a terrible sound, it's inorganic and not easily processed by the human brain.
There's so much more involved to process a CD as opposed to a record to get sound to your ears.
As with any medium, you're always at the mercy of the recording itself and/or the manufacturer for a quality product... you win some, you lose some.

[Devil Doc]

It's more fun.

Doc

[orientalexpress]

Why not just get both vinyl and Digital ?It's fun just to compare them yourself or with friends.Both have it weaknesses .Most audiophiles i know have Vinyl,CD player and computer in their system. :thumb:Most importance thing is Enjoy the Music.



lapsan

[Delta Wave]

It's more fun.

Doc

That too! 

[J-Pak]

I see no one has addressed the point about analog tape. In my opinion top tape playback like the The Tape Project tapes is better than even vinyl.

However R2R vintage tape dubs (many which are plagued with sticky shed syndrome) can be better or worse than vinyl.

But if you have the cash to get into high end R2R playback, it is truly stunning. But at $200-500 each for these modern tape albums, you have to really love the music to get into it.

[Photon46]

I had some senior friends vinyl lovers, they are unlettered in audio.
Could you inform me what is the most silent running stylus type??
I will suggest it to them.
Thanks in advance

I'm no oracle of catridge design , but from my experience over the years, it seems each upward progression or development in stylus geometry yields quieter "in the groove" listening. Shibata, micro-ridge, Van den Hul, Fritz Gyger, line-contact, and other later developed sylus profiles can all play very quietly. From what I've read, these all tend to ride low lower in the record grooves than earlier conical and elliptical styli and are able to track in quieter, less worn areas of used recordings.

This thread from the vinyl engine has a wealth of information about stylus design: www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=22894

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

...There's no contest, the vinyl version is superior by a large margin.

YOU got it right!

Also try LPs with digital masters, which I own a dozen. You'll be surprised LP music can sound so quiet, dynamic like a super CD-audio, but musically much better.

Why not just get both vinyl and Digital ?

lapsan

I've been playing CD-audo, CD-R, & DVD-audio for many years before I jumped on the vinyl wagon (withOUT spending a fortune like so many LP lovers). I compared & am deadly convinced analogue (LP & cassette tape) sounds so much better.

Mind you, I play mostly classics, vacal masters like Mario del Morraco, Pavarotti to Domingo & musics from
Chopin nocturnes to Beethoven symphonies. I know what I am listening.

I see no one has addressed the point about analog tape. In my opinion top tape playback like the The Tape Project tapes is better than even vinyl.

I spent enough time in the past on cassette tape music which I recorded mostly off the air. Given proper recording (quality cassette blank tapes, PROPER recording level setting). Cassette tape music can sound pretty nice vs CDs. So often I prefer cassette tape music over CDs. Please don't challenge - I know what I am listening. I recorded many hundreds tapes & play them frequently.

I don't want to get into R-to-R. Too bulky & too costly.

I'm no oracle of catridge design , but from my experience over the years, it seems each upward progression or development in stylus geometry yields quieter "in the groove" listening. Shibata, micro-ridge, Van den Hul, Fritz Gyger, line-contact, and other later developed sylus profiles can all play very quietly.

Given PROPER playing management, I don't need to drop a big bundle to acquire any exotic hi-tech cartridges+styli & still my mostly recyled LPs sound pretty quiet.

Record surface noise & tracking noise have never been any problem to me. How come? I play my LPs WET.

c-J

[FullRangeMan]

I'm no oracle of catridge design , but from my experience over the years, it seems each upward progression or development in stylus geometry yields quieter "in the groove" listening. Shibata, micro-ridge, Van den Hul, Fritz Gyger, line-contact, and other later developed sylus profiles can all play very quietly. From what I've read, these all tend to ride low lower in the record grooves than earlier conical and elliptical styli and are able to track in quieter, less worn areas of used recordings.

This thread from the vinyl engine has a wealth of information about stylus design: www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=22894

Much funny ...Just now I realize you are kiding me...
I almost believe this your prayer of Holly Graal low noise vinyl... my fault.
I remember in the 90 years I listen a Basis Debut and that vinyl sounded so hissy as ever...
 

[TheChairGuy]

I get goosebumps listening to vinyl.....and may have never gotten them listening to digital.

I keep my hopes high that I will - digital is a whole lot less hassle - but in the end I'm  a servant to the emotion in music which conclusively keeps me listening to vinyl.