Speaker suggestion time

JohnR · « **Reply #20 on:** 27 Dec 2002, 11:22 pm »

Rather than simply mocking, how about explaining why? I am curious, how *do* these speakers work?

JohnR

hairofthedawg · « **Reply #21 on:** 28 Dec 2002, 12:52 am »

Zoo, damn, sorry to hear that and wish you success! I almost bought the 40's and with my room, I'm kind of glad i didn't. I may or may not have been successful in tuning them to the room but the headaches wouldn't have been worth the hassle. That's part of my problem, the SL gear has been such a step up for me that I can't tell what's good or bad. Something like should it be this good out of the box or should I tinker? I've tinkered a bit with some improvement but unless you're a tube guy, any movement toward Symphonic Line is a step in the right direction.

John, on these speakers, the only specs I've been able to decipher is that somewhere in there is a tenth-order crossover, probably for the super tweets, but then again I don't know what I'm talking about. My Deutsch is pretty much limited to noch ein bier bitte, but the sound is great. There's a pic in the odyssey forum of the amp but the speakers don't look like they come apart easily so you probably won't see one of them. Kraft is a good name for them, they look very well built and sound the same.

I just hope Klaus doesn't get pissed because I posted the pic of it. From Marbles' description, he's a pretty scary guy, but you don't get that from talking with him. He's definitely worth a call for those that haven't, whether you're looking to buy his products or not.

Rock on!

Dick

Jay S · « **Reply #22 on:** 28 Dec 2002, 12:56 am »

If you have the Le Amp then please try to find a pair of Acoustic Reality Avinci 1's. They sometimes go on sale on HD/AA, and are under $800/pair (sometimes lower than that). These components have tremendous synergy.

IMO, the Le Amp has a slightly rough top-end and lacks some bass extension and woofer control. These are not hard knocks, but rather what I hear in comparison with the eAR Two (which is several times as expensive). The Avinci, IMO, has a forgiving top-end, and punchy bass, but doesn't have last octave extension. Paired together, you get a sweet top-end, rich textured mids, a very wide and deep soundstage with 3D imaging, and punchy bass.

The Avinci 1 uses the Revelator woofer and the Hiquphon OW1 tweeter, and some very high quality XO parts. For the prices they are selling for used, I think they are a steal.

rosconey · « **Reply #23 on:** 28 Dec 2002, 01:04 am »

you can see a pic of my speaker in the avatar.
mine are small because thats what i wanted-i have a vmps large sub so i didnt want low bass speakers, besides my reciever has a 90 cross over .
scan speak and morel & seas parts(i cheaped out and used different woofers)

www.selahaudio.com

how do you like the le-amps i just ordered a pair from ird , getting cold feet wondering if they have the guts i want, do they power your vmps ok.
a lot of nice stuff used right now.saw a belles 150a hot rod for 700$

ZooDog · « **Reply #24 on:** 28 Dec 2002, 02:43 am »

Tyson - I might look into seeing if I can get my dealer to trade my RM-1's for 626's. The 40's are just too damn big. I'm interested to see what new technologies Brian C. will be using in his new RM/x. I think he was hinting that he may have solved the dispersion problems that the RM series suffers from.

Hair - If you don't mind me asking, how much were your SL speakers? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to post it publicly.

rosconey - Unfortunately I have not had another decent amp in my system to compare Le Amp with but they sound pretty good to me. They seem to have plenty of juice for my RM-1's which are a 4 ohm load. Unless you play your music extremely loud I doubt you will have problems. For $500 you cannot go wrong with them because I'm sure you will always find a use for them. I plan on using them in my pc-based system when I eventually upgrade.

Jay S · « **Reply #25 on:** 28 Dec 2002, 03:00 am »

Brian Cheney auditioned the Le Amps (initial release version, with the cap still installed) with the RM40 and thought they sounded very nice. His review is posted in the Review section of AA. This is not to say that other amps won't sound better on VMPS ribbon speakers. But, rather, that the Le Amps may not be the most likely suspect to the sound problems you are having.

Mathew_M · « **Reply #26 on:** 28 Dec 2002, 03:59 am »

Having not heard the RM1, only the RM2 in comparison to my 626R I can sort of help. I wasn't crazy about the Rm2 for a couple of reasons, but this was probably because of poor room acoustics and IMO a nicht so gut source feeding them. I will tell you that my speakers have really changed in character over break-in and a source change. I've just upgraded to a Jolida JD100 tube CDP and it has opened up everything a great deal. The tube output has 'rounded' out the sound very nicely. For those recordings that are already excellent or dare I say over-produced I still run the digital out into my Art DIO. So far it's the best of both worlds. Either way by going from a changer to single loading unit has made a big difference. Maybe look into getting your player modded.

bubba966 · « **Reply #27 on:** 28 Dec 2002, 05:46 am »

Quote from: ZooDog

I'm interested to see what new technologies Brian C. will be using in his new RM/x. I think he was hinting that he may have solved the dispersion problems that the RM series suffers from.

Weren't the new ribbons he's using in the RM/X going to be available as upgrades to the current ribbon speaker models?

tkp · « **Reply #28 on:** 28 Dec 2002, 06:01 am »

Zoodog,

VMPS speakers are power hungry so they would benefit greatly with a high current amp. In addition, the woofers are very sensitive to the gauge of the speaker cable that be used with them. Before you try to tweak the RM1 any further, my recommendation is to get the 6 gauge THHN 19 strands wire from Lowes and make a pair of speaker cable for the woofer section of the RM1 (remember that the woofer binding post might be the top pair and the tweeter is the bottom pair.)
Give the Lowes wire at least a week. I think you will be surprised how good the bass will get with the large gauge wire.

wshuff · « **Reply #29 on:** 28 Dec 2002, 06:37 am »

Bubba,

I think the new tweeters are available as an upgrade, at least on the RM40 because I think Tyson said he's getting them.

bubba966 · « **Reply #30 on:** 28 Dec 2002, 06:56 am »

Just looked it up on HD (see http://www.harmonicdiscord.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9028&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30), BC says that the new tweeters that are used in the RM/x will be available as upgrades to the RM1, RM2, RM40, LRC, & 626R for $200 per speaker.

John Casler · « **Reply #31 on:** 28 Dec 2002, 05:06 pm »

Zoodog,

TKP is correct that many times the wiring could be very helpful. Even bi-wiring can help.

I am not familiar with your "already tried" remedies, or your system.

Are you using a sub?

Do you run the RM1s full range?

Have you had the amp hooked to any other speaker?

Where is your listening position in relationship to the rear wall?

How close are your RM1s to the side and front walls?

Have you tried wiring to the "other" binding posts, with the toggle in both positions?

Also click the toggle "back and forth" 15-20 times to make sure the contacts are "wiped" clean and making a good contact.

Have you tried running just the "woofs" only and listening by wiring just the "upper" binding posts moving the toggles up?

Do you have "reflective floors"?

Just a few things to look at, or try.

John

VMPS LA CA USA

Ernest · « **Reply #32 on:** 28 Dec 2002, 05:41 pm »

I used LeAmps with my RM1s for a while and wasn't too happy with the combination. The sound was good but seemed to lack life. But I don't remember hearing any chestiness.

thetruth · « **Reply #33 on:** 29 Dec 2002, 03:26 pm »

Quote

Rather than simply mocking, how about explaining why? I am curious, how *do* these speakers work?

JohnR

The Michael Green designs have mechanical 'tensioning' devices built into the box. This means that the design has inherent 'wall-flex' (it's not a good thing Martha

). The end user is then supposed to "tune' the speaker to his/her room.

Unfortunately for Mr Green; loudspeaker enclosures aren't musical instruments, where one uses the enclosure resonances to an advantage. The ideal loudspeaker 'box' is probably made from concrete/stone and has no resonances (therefore no negative interaction) in the driver's passband

Hantra · « **Reply #34 on:** 29 Dec 2002, 04:24 pm »

John:

Thetruth is right. . These speakers do have tensioning devices inside the box. This inherently makes them work with any room in any position. If you are forced to place them up against a wall, you can tune them accordingly so that the midbass doesn't lash out at you.

These are actually the only dynamic speaker I have ever heard that sounds very much like an electrostatic panel because of it's free resonance, and radiation pattern. It does not have the placement, or bass issues that most electrostats have. This makes it that much better.

I am not saying these are the best speakers in the world. In fact, I would really like to design my own free resonants using a better crossover, and better materials. The only other people in the world using free resonant design, as far as I am aware, are Shun Mook. Their speakers are free resonant, but they are not tunable, and this makes the free resonant design much more dependant on placement, and room nodes.

This person "thetruth" is obviously a guy who has never heard a free resonant speaker, and has never heard a speaker with a concrete cabinet, and therefore is not qualified to comment on the sonic merits of either.

L8r,

B

thetruth · « **Reply #35 on:** 29 Dec 2002, 05:06 pm »

Quote

This person "thetruth" is obviously a guy who has never heard a free resonant speaker, and has never heard a speaker with a concrete cabinet, and therefore is not qualified to comment on the sonic merits of either.

thetruth is in the high-end audio business. He's designed and built state-of-the-art loudspeakers for more than 45 yrs. That does include construction of concrete enclosures

And as soon as Michael Green becomes a published member of the AES, thetruth will take him seriously. Mr Green is a very carismatic person much like P.T. Barnum.

BTW there is no such thing as a 'free-resonant' loudspeaker, the term itself is an oxymoron......

Hantra · « **Reply #36 on:** 29 Dec 2002, 05:27 pm »

Quote

And as soon as Michael Green becomes a published member of the AES, thetruth will take him seriously. Mr Green is a very carismatic person much like P.T. Barnum.

I don't disagree with that statement. I see where you are coming from. He has nothing published, and I am not sure how much of this speaker, or any of his speakers are actually his designs. There really is no way for me to tell because there is nothing out there on paper.

But it all comes down to what I have heard, and what I hear now.

Free - adj.

1. Not controlled by obligation or the will of another

Such as damping, and anything that will obligate the sound waves to stop.

Resonance - n.

1. The increase in amplitude of oscillation of an electric or mechanical system exposed to a periodic force whose frequency is equal or very close to the natural undamped frequency of the system.

2. Intensification and prolongation of sound, especially of a musical tone, produced by sympathetic vibration.

Since a loudspeaker is merely a device that converts electric signals to audible sound, I fail to see how this is an oxymoron. A free resonant speaker is one that allows the natural sympathetic resonance of the speaker to flourish, and does not subject the sound waves to tortuous damping which is the equivalent of maiming, or bludgeoning of the sound wave.

If the thethruth is such an audio god, then for what reason does he hide behind a moniker with no profile? The only people I know who do that are ones that are not sure of themselves. There is a certain confidence that comes with knowing that you are right, and that you do know the truth.

And by the way, if you claim the ultimate enclosure is a concrete one, and that you have "designed and built state-of-the-art loudspeakers for more than 45 yrs. That does include construction of concrete enclosures", then why does no one own a pair of your ultimate speakers?

B

thetruth · « **Reply #37 on:** 29 Dec 2002, 06:46 pm »

Quote

natural sympathetic resonance of the speaker to flourish, and does not subject the sound waves to tortuous damping which is the equivalent of maiming, or bludgeoning of the sound wave.

Loudspeaker design and engineering is science, not this pseudo-science mumbo jumbo

Use Sam Tellig's $1.25 in coins tweak and save youself some $$$$$$

So I continue ROTFLMAO.............

Ciao
TT

Hantra · « **Reply #38 on:** 29 Dec 2002, 08:33 pm »

Up until this point, your posts have not actually had any content. No real point, no evidence, nothing at all really except for words that would be better suited for the Fight Club circle.

In my opinion this means you have nothing at all of value to contribute, despite your 45 years of experience, and I am sorry for wasting everyone's time trying to respond to your posts.

So, I will meet you in Fight Club if you want to just argue aimlessly. . .

B

Ferdi · « **Reply #39 on:** 29 Dec 2002, 11:17 pm »

Hantra, Thetruth! congratulations to you both. As far as I know, you're the first in AC history to take a fight to Fight Club.

I hope you can work off your excess energy there and report back on the outcome. Jason will referree the proceedings in Fight Club.