[Carlman]

I'd like to bring my EE Minimax tube amp.  It's adequate for monitors around 90db+... However, the only monitors I have at the moment are the Europa's which are too big and heavy... and everyone's heard them...

So, if anyone has an efficient pair of monitor/bookshelves, it'd be great if you can bring them.  I'm amazed at this little amp.  (in my little rooom)

-C

[Inscrutable]

Bruno,
The 3.3's have a somewhat undeserved rep for being difficult to drive.  They certainly like and reward mo' better power, but the impedance curve bottoms at 4.3 ohms with a pretty benign phase angle, so I'd bet anything short of full orchestral and heavy percussion would be fine.

Sorry you can't make it Claud, but it sure will be a nice weekend for the beach.  I did get my modded 563 today - woulda been interesting to put it up against your 308T ... 'nother time.

[Hantra]

woulda been interesting to put it up against your 308T ... 'nother time.

Well if he's going to be on vacation, he won't be needing that 308.  

[Inscrutable]

Carl,
Worst case, we could run the signal thru my sub crossover (and turn its volume down to zero) to strip out the lower octave or two, and it might drive the top half of these.

[Inscrutable]

One more thing (as I carry on this conversation with myself) ... Since I had no faith that I'd get my player in time, I have not purchased a single SACD nor DVDA disc, so if you want to hear anything but redbook and vinyl, please bring it with you.

[Inscrutable]

Ahhh another voice in the wilderness.  Yes, and he won't be needing those Merlins either, but they'd probably come complete with his cold clammy fingers still clutching them  

[BikeWNC]

While you guys are busy stuffing your faces with chips, dip, pizza and whatever I was on the Blue Ridge Parkway riding my bike for 3 hours in the rain and fog.  Makes you feel a bit guilty doesn't it?  Probably not. I hope to get down to the Triangle sometime to attend another one of these meetings.  Hope your having fun.

Andy

[lonewolfny42]

While you guys are busy stuffing your faces with chips, dip, pizza and whatever I was on the Blue Ridge Parkway riding my bike for 3 hours in the rain and fog.  Makes you feel a bit guilty doesn't it?  Probably not. I hope to get down to the Triangle sometime to attend another one of these meetings.  Hope your having fun.

Andy

Hey Andy , Stay off that bike !! Seems whenever your riding, its bad weather !!

[Carlman]

Just got home a little while ago... I can't say thanks enough for Tim hosting.  He has a true home theater complete with theater seats, giant screen and all sorts of goodies.

He made jumbalaya that was incredible and I helped myself to seconds...

Oh yeah, the gear... how could I forget?  
For sources we had a modified Pioneer 563a and the TT had a Rega arm and Denon D-160 cart..
Pre:
Rogue preamp w/ 2 sets of tubes.  
Amps:
A pair of monoblocks that Scott Nixon made, a Citation amp, the Eastern Electric amp (my contribution), and the Sharp digital integrated amp.
Speakers:
NHT (big ones, don't know the model)

I thoroughly enjoyed hearing the changes that each piece of gear made.  I keep learning more and more about what I like and have decided that tube amps do it for me.  We heard 2 varieties of solid state, the tubes and a digital amp and I just like the smoothness of the sound on the tubes the best.  This has been something I have been against for a long time because I'd heard a tube/speaker combo that was many thousands of dollars sound really weak and pathetic.  No dynamics, warmed over sound... just not good.  I made a mistake in judging based on that one experience.... live and learn...

We did one comparison of a song in CD vs. vinyl and I prefered the vinyl a bit more.  It wasn't bad on CD or good on vinyl, just more right sounding to my ears on vinyl.  Specifically, I thought the vinyl had more extended highs and more focused imaging.  The cd player had a lower noise floor and slightly richer midbass.  

Well, that's all I'm going to say for now.  As good as the jumbalaya was, my stomach now needs more.

Thanks again to Tim.  You're an excellent host!

-Carl

[sheadlee]

Likewise...a very big THANK YOU!!!...to Tim for hosting this get-together.

I am somewhat envious of having a totally separarte room, in which you can set up anything that you wish.

Also, it was nice to see you guys again, and to get to know you a bit better.

[996turbo]

I also enjoyed my time there. I am always happy to het together with other audiofools.

Tim did I leave the Copland reference recording there. I may have left it in Brandons car but have not talked with him yet.

Once again I enjoyed meeting you guys and hope to do it again. You guys are welcome at my house anytime

[Inscrutable]

You guys are more than welcome - I enjoyed it too.  Plus, there are some fringe benefits to hosting:

Bruno left his bookbag
Carl left an unopened bottle of Scotch
Someone left their AC tee (black, 2XL, SS)
Jason left his CD

Now Brandon if you'd done your part and left the Nixon monoblocks ...  

Just LMK how to return these items, or if you want me to hang on to any until the next meeting.

[Carlman]

That T-shirt is Claud's.  I left it there by accident... but hold onto it until the next meeting please.  
Thanks,
Carl

[Inscrutable]

As far as the events, I'll add a penny or two.

We didn't really make any effort at disciplined controlled comparison testing, so it's pretty much subjective opinions here.  

First, I've never considered my speakers bright, and it was interesting that it appears no one else here did either, despite some amount of popular belief to the contrary.  It really only matters to me in the context that perhaps my old ears and hearing is not all that rolled off as I was prepared to give myself (dis)credit for.  

That said, I too preferred the hybrid combo of the EE Minimax on top and the Citation on the bottom to either of the all-SS variations we tried. THAT said, we did the output tube switch on my pre and the EE substitution at once, so I'm not sure about the degree to which each was responsible.   I'll get a chance to roll the tubes back again and see what happens.  We also didn't try to swap the PSAudio pre back in again as well, so only the EE tubes would be in the chain.

I'm not sure one song told the tale on the LP vs CD, given we took no pains to level match.  From what is now distant memory, I can say that the modded 563 is better in every way from my old CDP.  I was very impressed by its handling of the Santana SACD - particularly the transients/dynamics and percussion/bass definition.  I'm anxious to see if the video quality is passable enough for me to abandon the HTPC in favor of blissful simplicity.

Back to the hybrid amplification - I was amazed at how well the amps matched up with no gain adjustments - either dumb luck, or perhaps necessary gain matching isn't as critical as it is made out to be?  I had previously convinced myself that amplification would be my next upgrade, but that finding a smooth SS choice (like say a Classe CA-200 or CA-300) would be the way to go, as I couldn't afford tubes that could handle these speakers.  That thinking may be out the window for two reasons:
1. An inexpensive low-powered tube amp on top with no gain matching sounded pretty damn good at reasonable volume
2. It still didn't sound WAY better than my current amp, and therefore
3. I'm wondering if not the equivalent amount upgrading the vinyl front end would yield far more readily discernible improvement, or alternatively
4. A second system of completely different character - like SET and hi-efficiency single driver speakers - might satisfy my cravings better.

Based on yesterday, I think I'd have to at least experiment with driving the top with a tube amp and somehow intergrating that with the Citation driving the woofer.  I've seen SS amps with variable gain, but I don't think i've seen any such feature on tube amps - have you?

[Carlman]

hmmm.. a couple of thoughts on your comments, Tim...
I'm pretty sure we went from the SN monoblocks to the Eastern Electric/Citation combo.  And that was after the tube swap in your preamp.

I'm *pretty sure* anyway... I reserve the right to be incorrect.

So, it would be pretty tough to compare anything other than the Scott Nixon's to the EE Mini.  I based my comparison of the sound to my memory of the Citation with the older tubes in the preamp.  So, that's not fair either because the tubes really opened up the highs.

Also, the SN's sounded a little bright to me.  So, going to tubes from that was a dramatic change to me.

The CDP did nothing wrong.  I can definitely say it bests many I've heard at detail and smoothness.  I agree with your comments about the Santana track and will add that the impact and detail were incredible.  The only thing I'd say it doesn't do as well as my reference (a BAT D5) is that liquid smooth musicality that I've only heard in that one player.

The Pioneer was smooth and non-digital sounding but didn't sound as whole as the $5,000 player I'm comparing it to based on months old audio memory.

If I were you, I'd bi-amp using your current amp for the bass drivers and get a 50-100w tube amp for the top half.  You could get an integrated to adjust levels.  (not that you asked...)

Your vinyl rig is nice.  I'd be willing to bring some cart's over to hear if you like one over the other.  I'm between a Sumiko Blue Point Special and 'other'.  I can't afford a Shelter right now.  But while I'm proposing things... the Shelter 90x is the one everyone's talking about.  However, at $2700 it better sound good.  The 501 is only 800, though.

My point with all that is, stay where you are with vinyl unless you're ready to spend a few grand+.  It seems a 1,k vinyl rig is the best for the money and then the next step is 3-5,k... then 10,k.  There's not much in the gaps.

-C

[Inscrutable]

Gee, with all the jumpering I just can't remember at what point we rolled the pre tubes, but I thought it was between the Nixons and EE.  Like you I could be wrong (hard to believe)  

I almost jumped into an Audiomeca not long ago - I would dearly love to hear that against the Pioneer to see what the extra 5k buys (and on redbook only).  I think Wally (and I'm sure Alex as well) has done a great job with this little player.  Maybe the best $600 I've spent in a long time.

RE vinyl, I'm always talking used prices, but this could be the one place I'd be more likely to buy new.  But when you are talking about my rig, you are talking about a $0.15 k investment, so a $1k combo of similar bargain would be a pretty healthy jump (Rega P25, Basis 1400, etc)  WRT cartridges, I don't think the BPS will be any improvement over the Denon and likely not worth the setup trouble, but if you'd like to monkey with it what the hell.  Now, if you score a Shelter OTOH ...  

OK I'm stupid with sleep deprivation (I got up at 1:00am this morning), so tell me how the integrated up top lets me gain match??

[996turbo]

we really did not do  any solidly based comparisons. The new tubes could have a huge affect on what was going on. I definately heard more energy on the top with the new tubes. and amp combo.

As far as an amp that you may like I can not say enough good things about the sound of Plinius. Maybe you could talk Brandon into listening to his as mine is way too much to bring anywhere(unless you can find some super long interconnects)

I think if you want to do a meaningful comparison we need to us the Aloia that Brandon had, gain match and have a little more structure to it.

I liked several combos we listened to but have no idea which is the best component in that system as there were to many variables.

[Hantra]

Tubes were changed in between the Citation, and the Anodyne monoblocks.  I will agree that the system got brighter when we inserted the monos, but I also wonder how much of that was the pre.  

Like I said earlier Sunday, the only system I ever heard with Rogue, it was one of the brightest systems I have ever heard.  

Nevertheless, I never thought it was any brighter than what I would hear live.  Especially during the Santana tracks.  That was VERY live, and I thought the dynamics, and bottom end were far beyond anything else we heard.  But hey, what do you want?  They're MY amps.  

In all seriousness, they are a no-nonsense, zero feedback design that was all the rage for B&W owners a few years back.  They are sort of a Krell alternative, with more funk.  Speakers with any degree of push will not sound so well with them.  

In contrast, I thought the MiniMax was great, but it put me to sleep.  Anemic is an understatement, but honestly it drove the upper end of those MUCH better than I thought it would.

Great meeting though, and I appreciate Tim's hospitality.  I only wish my listening room was as large. . .   Things in a large room will happen that are impossible in a small one.  I found that out tonight listening to some Maggie 3.6 at my friend's place.  Woooah!

L8r,

B

[Carlman]

MiniMax was great, but it put me to sleep. Anemic is an understatement ...

Geez... if I don't have a Rottweiler that eats only gunpowder, I have a nearly dead little white bunny that the Rottweiler attacked...  

[Hantra]

MiniMax was great, but it put me to sleep. Anemic is an understatement ...

Geez... if I don't have a Rottweiler that eats only gunpowder, I have a nearly dead little white bunny that the Rottweiler attacked...  

Ohh come on!  The Rottweiler thing was a compliment.  

I would love to hear that amp on your speakers.  Throwing it on even some small NHT's is just not fair.  My SuperOnes back in the day would eat all they were given, and were just very insensitive.