[sbcgroup1]

Ordering the RM40's and larger sub. I am going to run a pair of rears from what I currently have.

Anyways, in this setup (minus the center channel), is there a way to run in Dolby Digital?

Another option is to get the center channel (RM30C) instead of the sub for now and try Dolby Digital that way.

We are probably more partial to getting the center channel over the sub because we get cranky when the dialogue is weak.

Due to budget constrictions I will be adding everything else I need piece by piece (want to keep some cash on hand for things like....a beautiful new lawn mower...LOL.....

-Ed

[Marbles]

Just order the 40's now and after breaking them in for a month, you will know which one you need more.

[zybar]

Ed,

I offer my house as a way to hear the 40's + Larger without a center.  I promise you that I don't have weak or washed out dialogue.

I made the choice to go without a center and have the sub.

George

[ctviggen]

Just make sure your processor will route everything from the center channel into the front left and right speakers.  I don't think mine will do this (although I've never tried to do this, either).  If you go without a sub, then you have to see if your processor will route the LFE signal to the mains (or do without this signal, although it comes into play on DVDs such as the Lord of the Rings).

[zybar]

Bob,

Are you sure your processor won't do that?  Even the cheapest receiver's and processros on the market have been doing a phantom center for years...

George

[ctviggen]

George,

No, I'm not.  I'll have to read the manual. I'll report back (although for me, it's a moot point, as I already have a sub and have ordered the RM30C).  If my system does support it, I could also see what the difference is between no center and with a center, but I still have my Linns and don't have my VMPS speakers.  Plus, a lot of my good test disks are kids' DVDs (like Toy Story and Monster's Inc.), and my friend has these.  However, I do have LOTR and the Matrix, so these should be a good test.

[lkosova]

Ed,

forget the lawnmower!!!!  Can the lawnmower produce beautiful music like the VMPS??!!!??

Any pre/pro or receiver will do phantom as stated already. Some say the the RM-40's have good enough bass and some like it with the larger sub. Ones that like phatom will not miss the center dialouge but some will say that you always need a center channel.

This is a hard call but I would choose the sub at this point esp. for movies. Then add the center and rears later. If you have a chance to go listen to zybar's system I would and see if this is what you want.

Larry

[JoshK]

I also run no center, but then no sub and no rears either!  

For movies, rears are kinda nice although there isn't a whole lot back there, and except for action movies you really aren't missing anything by not having them, IMHO.  Center you can do without for the reason George said, unless you have seating all over the room.  But the sub you'll really miss if you are a hardcore HT type.  

Marbles gave you some good advice.  I'd start with the RM40s and the sub and work up from there depending on which you need more, but you might like the rears next, depends on your needs and setup.

[ctviggen]

Well, my Proceed AVP will not let me choose to have no center.  The manual indicates that this is an option, and, indeed, I can select "no center."  However, when I select my fronts full range, no center, the rears subject to a crossover (of 80Hz), and a sub, the AVP says that "this is an invalid crossover configuration" and will not let me select this setup.  Perhaps if I selected the fronts subject to the crossover?  However, that means that during stereo, when I force the subwoofer to "off," then I'd have no low end coming out of my speakers.  (I believe -- the manual is unclear as to this fact.  I've done tests using various crossover points, and I think that having the mains crossed over during movies is better, but then I'd lack bass for stereo.)

So, here's a $5,000 preamp that will not do a phantom center.  

If you can make it to George's, I'm only about an hour away (in CT), and will have RM40s, an RM30C, two large Linn speakers as surrounds, and an SV sub.   Unfortunately, due my processor's restrictions, I won't be able to turn on and off the center channel (unless I can figure out how to do so -- it is an option to have no center).  My RM40s will be about 12-14 feet apart.

[meilankev]

Bob,

What is between your main speakers???  Do you have a "big, honkin' RPTV"??  Perhaps a "big, honkin' Entertainment Center"??  Maybe you just have a A/V stand between the Mains.

If any of these scenarios fit your listening room, your imaging/soundstage is being affected.  While most people only consider this limitation as it applies to 2-channel listening, there is a similar negative effect when watching movies.  This is why a Center Speaker can play such an important role in Home Theaters - it provides a stable center image (regardless of environment).

The only way to avoid it (in an integrated system) is to have either one of those slim-line TVs that hang on the wall, or use a front projector.  When there is no equipment/furniture to screw up the stereo image for 2-channel, a phanthom center becomes more palatable for Home Theater.

Just my opinion (but one I have researched a little bit),
Kevin

[ctviggen]

Hi Kevin,

Yes, I have a 57 inch HDTV and a matching stand between the speakers.  Ideally, I'd rather not have that, but that's what I have and what will be there for at least a while.  It's why I can't put the speakers near the room's walls (i.e., back far enough), and why I think a center channel is good for my particular scenario.  It's also probably limiting my 2-channel sound, but there's nothing I can do about it (I'm financially strapped after buying my VMPS speakers and moving into this house).  One day, it'll be a projection TV, with all the gear hidden in a closet and a screen that comes down.  However, that's at least several years away (I still need a lawnmower, new dishwasher, bedroom suit -- you should see how empty this house is!, etc., etc., etc.).  That, or winning the lottery.  (Although, If I won the lottery, I could see building a new house, complete with well thought-out HT room....It really never ends, does it?! .

[sbcgroup1]

Okay guys, it seems everyone is recommending I go with the sub instead of the RM30C. I dunno. Center channel dialogue is so important to me. It was always so annoying when I couldn't hear what the people were saying (got drowned out and had volume fluctuations, etc.) But this is coming from me listening on my old system w/just pro-logic, running in center channel phantom mode, before i got my center. Also I would definitely think using some kind of compression setting would totally help this out as I am familiar with using outboard compressors in my recording studio. I have never used it on a pre/pro in conjunction w/HT though.

Anyways, we're going with the Sherwood Newcastle pre/pro (because everyone kept talking me into it over the Outlaw 950...everyone says that it is much better sonically...but other than that, I don't need all the bells & whistles, etc. I just want bang for the buck, but am willing on spending a little more if the Newcastle is really worth it, I guess. I also have no need for video upconversion since we are purchasing a Focus Enhancements scaler for our projector, which we will use for all video duties.

Do you guys still think we should go with the Newcastle over the Outlaw 950 if we don't need the video up conversion and like 1000 different ambience settings? Only interested in sonics, etc.

I don't know if it is possible to totally bring out and isolate the center channel dialogue (discreet signal) if I have the lack of a center. If it is, then I'll just go with the sub instead of the RM30C for now.

Also, doesn't everyone think we'll get enough bass if we redirect the bass signal to the RM40's and 30C? I know it won't be like listening to the big VMPS sub, but it should be substantial enough...right?

As for the rears, I'm using my old H/K AVR 25 mkII receiver and a pair of JBL J series surrounds or mains (from my old system). That should work okay for the time being.

Sorry for all the rambling...keep giving me all your input and ideas....I appreciate it!!

-Ed

[zybar]

Ed,

I sound like a broken record, but just come over and listen.  

You can decide if my setup (without the center) does it for you.

To my very picky ears I can hear everything fine.

George

[ctviggen]

How much time do you have?  You could drive to George's, listen to his system with no center but two subs, then drive to my house, I'll turn off my sub, and you could listed to 5 channels with no sub.  Or, I could bring my RM30C to George's (and the amp I use, if necessary), and we could all do a direct comparison (though I don't have my VMPS speakers as of yet  -- I should be getting them soon, however).  I'd be interested to compare no CC to a CC (and I'll likely biamp my CC just because I have extra channels of amplification sitting around).

[jgubman]

Hi Ed,

FWIW, I think you should go w/ the RM-40 and RM-30C (or LRC) rather than the sub. I was experimenting around a little last night using my Outlaw 950 w/ and w/o a center. On some movies, especially DD2.0 movies, a center channel was definately not needed. However, on 5.1 movies, I wouldn't want to do w/o a center channel. To me the sound was significantly degraded w/o a center, it wasn't that the center-fill of the RM-40s wasn't fine (all dialogue still seemed to come from the TV), but there was a general lack of focus to the front stage and loss of detail.

Don't know how much of it was due to the 950's downmix (probably quite a bit since the 2.0 sounded fine). It's quite possible the sherwood or another pre/pro would sound better.

I also agree, however, that you should run as quickly as possible to George's since he has the EXACT system you're considering building.

I think the decision to go w/ the sherwood over the 950 is probably a good one, both in terms of SQ (of course I've never heard the P965, so take that assumtion for what it's worth, not much), some nice features (up/over sampling) and better resale value (950's getting near the end of it's life).

What amps did you decide on?

[zybar]

BTW, I use an Outlaw 950 as my processor in a 7.1 setup (without a center obviously).

Jgubman, looking at your system, you have a lot of things (BIG THINGS) between your 40's.  In my setup I don't and that is a major reason why things work without a center channel.

Here is an older pic of my setup:




I will try and get an updated photo up later today.

George

[sbcgroup1]

I'm trying to coordinate everything with George and Bob to get together next weekend. We'll do some runs w/ the Center Channel and w/o one.

I'm going to power the 40's and whatever the 3rd speaker is with the Cinenova Grande 3 (copying you...lol). Then run 2 sets of rears (my old JBL J-Series) w/ my old H/K AVR 25 mkII receiver. We will add more as time goes on. I think this should be a good foundation to start with.

My first planned purchases after doing this initial system (I may even charge them..) is a screen for the wall and the Focus Enhancements CS-HD video scaler. Those are mandatory for us (primary TV/Movies in Living Room for daily use).

By the way, how do those SVS's compare to the VMPS subs? I previously had been eyeing a 20-39 PC+ and going that route instead of the largest VMPS sub route would be less than half the price. I have only heard the VMPS larger sub w/an NHT 800W power amp (bridged mono) at Roop's in NYC and it was amazing.

-Ed

[jgubman]

George:
Yep, definately another possibility. My setup is in a small basement with low ceilings (13' x 22' x 6'3") and a very nearfield seating (~9' from the RM-40s). Unquestionably nowhere near as well optimized for 2-channel as your setup.

Things do sound pretty good in plain old stereo in my system though, admittedly not as good as they do w/ a nice big quilted comforter thrown over the TV and stand.

I think you should check out a LRC or RM-30C in your system though. I generally am quite satisfied to listen to 2-channel sources in stereo (TV broadcasts, etc.) and was very surprised by how much better the 5.1 discs (I'd have to recheck my netflix queue, but I think the movies I tested were Bubba Ho-Tep (which was a crappy recording no matter how you listen -- lots of distortion)  and 21 Grams) sounded w/ 3 front speakers.

[ctviggen]

If we do get together, I can bring my SVS.  I have the 20-39 before they added the "+".  I highly doubt that it's as good as a larger, though, and I'm sure it's nowhere near as good as two largers.  If you want to meet next weekend, I won't have my RM30C then (at least I don't think I will), but I can bring my Linn center channel.  It won't be a great match, but will at least show what's missing.  I can also bring a 5-channel amp.  However, I don't see anyplace to even put a center channel in George's last picture (which I know isn't a current picture).

[sbcgroup1]

BTW, I use an Outlaw 950 as my processor in a 7.1 setup (without a center obviously).

Have you a/b'd that with a Sherwood Newcastle pre/pro in just the plain old Dolby Digital or 2 channel stereo modes w/o any extra processing? I know the Outlaw isn't upgradeable, but does that even really matter? The latest and greatest things don't mean anything to me since all DVD's use the standard DD processing from years ago, etc.

I told Bob (CTViggen) to PM you and see if we can all get together this weekend. He wants to bring his center and a pair of amps over to your place so we can listen with it in and out of the system and go from there. I think it would be fun to test everything out.

As far as spacing everything out, I will have a screen and equipment in the center (like your setup), but I only have room to get the speakers about 9' apart along my wall...maybe even less.

-Ed