[SteveRB]

Hey Guys,

I've had a couple recent experiences that have left me wanting more out of my system. One, a friend of mine made a big investment in some high end box speakers that have new levels of imaging I was un-aware of. And two, I spent a lot of time and effort putting together an all vintage 3way OB that ended up burning out components due to age. So now, I am back with my bi-amp Visaton/Alpha OB. ...But feeling like I'm not getting much magic out of them anymore. (it should be noted that I have moved to a carpeted house from a hardwood apartment).

For the past couple months I have been raising money for a new speaker system. I certainly cannot go back to big boxes. But I have been looking around for a more 'off the shelf' system that will produce the experience that I am missing. Currently I am considering two routes:

GR Research Super V
http://gr-research.com/super-v.aspx

Magnepan planars 1.7 (maybe the older 1.6)
http://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_16

Each route has trade-offs that I am not experienced with when compared to the simple Visaton/Alpha OB. The SuperV's use servo subs that, promise exceptional results, but seem to rely on a lot of components and circuitry. The Magnepans would require significantly more amplifier than I currently have (using a rebuilt Eico hf81 14Watts per channel) and would probably need a subwoofer for modern music and hip-hop.

Both routes also require significant cash upfront. is there another option I'm over looking? 

I'm not opposed to the DIY approach; OBs are very rewarding to build. But I do find myself tinkering too much, looking to get improvements in the details of the speaker, without fully understanding the dynamics of the system as a whole.

My priorities are: dipole speakers, great imaging, great clarity, flexible for various music types and recording quality, long lasting quality.

I'm in a bit of a vacuum in regards to testing and trying new equipment -- most of my friends have limited interest in this or are set with their big boxes, or vintage horns. I'm the only OB I know. And I am fairly happy with the rest of my stereo set up.

I guess I'm hoping this forum will help guide me towards a direction I can live with for a long time. 

[MJK]

Dump the tube amp.

Get a preamp and two or three decent identical solid state amps (100 watts per channel minimum) and a digital crossover.

Now you can use just about any high Qts woofer(s) and mate it(them) with just about any full range driver or midrange and tweeter combo, match the levels by boost or cutting the input and optimize the crossover points by ear. Make the baffles wide enough to use the dipole hump in the crossover from the woofer to the mid or full range and be above the dipole hump if crossing over to a tweeter. Run simulations to understand what is going on acoustically and set the crossover points and slopes. No more jerking around trying to match driver levels, tweaking passive crossover components, and futzing with tubes. Build modular so you can easily try different drivers. Flexible build, easy tweaking, and hard to screw up.

[Tyson]

MJK, I agree that active is more precise and better sounding than passive, the OP is looking to move toward a completed system. 

I think the Super V is one of the best speakers out there, now that it uses the Jupitor caps on the tweeter.  It has always had the very best bass I have ever heard, and dynamics to match most horn speakers, but the tone was pretty "hot" before the new caps.  Since that change, they kept all their strengths and now have very good tone.  The image incredibly well, assuming you can get them at least 3 feet from the rear wall and the side walls. 

Maggies are great at sounding "big" and throwing a large soundstage, but are pretty poor with regard to dynamics, and are seriously lacking in bass impact.  The Super V's will run just fine with your current tube amp, but the Maggies will certainly not.

[matevana]

I've had a few systems that made use of a single FR driver in conjunction with a separate bass driver. They were pleasant, but I experienced a sizable improvement in dynamics and detail when I replaced the FR driver with a separate mid/bass driver and tweeter and a properly designed passive x/o.

I like using 8"-10" "mid" drivers for OB. They seem to provide greater "authority" and produce credible lower mids. In many cases if you are able to address the 100Hz to 300Hz range properly w/o any suck-out from cancellation, the whole system tends to take-on greater "realism". By this, I'm referring to the "weight" of the sound, if that makes any sense? 

If you like to tinker, also take a look at using a dome tweeter in a wave guide (or a smaller diameter dome) for the top end to enhance directivity. You may really like this combination while leaving your bass modules in tact.     

[SteveRB]

Dump the tube amp.

Get a preamp and two or three decent identical solid state amps (100 watts per channel minimum) and a digital crossover.

I'm open to losing the tube amp. It's been a long time since I've looked into SS amps. There are a couple nice Bryston options on the local used market here. I'm a little hesitant to go with a full digital crossover -- I'm listening to records almost exclusively.

I think the Super V is one of the best speakers out there...

Maggies are great at sounding "big" and throwing a large soundstage, but are pretty poor with regard to dynamics, and are seriously lacking in bass impact.  The Super V's will run just fine with your current tube amp, but the Maggies will certainly not.

I'm leaning towards the SuperVs but they are a lot of money for a kit. The Maggies are something I'd kinda like to try. Not sure if they'll do everything I'm hoping for... somedays I listen to Karen Dalton and some days I turn up the Kanye West.

[-Richard-]

Hi astronaut_glen ~

Thanks for posting your thoughts on this... I deeply appreciate it. I am entirely sympathetic with your wish to look for an alternative "sound" now that you have lived with your OB's for quite some time and feel the need to move beyond their perceived limitations.

Good luck with your search and please keep us informed of your latest thinking... as well as any experiences you have as you search the field of 'commercial' offerings. There is no reason to 'stay' with any speaker design once it has reached the limits of its usefulness.

With Warmest Regards ~ Richard

[JLM]

According to Floyd Toole et al, 3 or 4 bass generators are required to eliminate peaks and troughs (that occur at different frequencies at different locations) of sub 300 Hz frequencies in a room.  The same crowd also recommends constant (wide) dispersion generators of higher frequencies.  Search Geddes or visit the Audiokinesis circle here at AC.

According to those pesky laws of physics you gotta dump OB ff you want deep bass or precise imaging.  (Many OB fans like the dynamics, so steer towards high efficiency.)  Note that vertical arrays only work (provide the intended effect) if they extend the entire room height or are curved away from listener (but then you paying for lots of medicore drivers and running through miles of wire).

Listen to MJK.

[Tyson]

OB's can have precise imaging if you use a narrow baffle and pull them at least 3 feet from a room boundary.

Also, multiple bass sources is the only way to go if you are using BOX subs.  With OB bass the side nulls effectively "remove" side wall reinforcement.  They give you better bass because they interact with the room less.

OB deep bass is definitely possible if you have enough woofers, with enough swept volume, and enough excursion.  The Super V's meet all of those requirements, in spades.

[jimdgoulding]

OB's can have precise imaging if you use a narrow baffle and pull them at least 3 feet from a room boundary.

Also, multiple bass sources is the only way to go if you are using BOX subs.  With OB bass the side nulls effectively "remove" side wall reinforcement.  They give you better bass because they interact with the room less.

OB deep bass is definitely possible if you have enough woofers, with enough swept volume, and enough excursion.  The Super V's meet all of those requirements, in spades.

I'm beginning to wonder if what I make shaped for individual necessities would improve imaging.  I don't see how it couldn't, really . 

http://www.diffractionbegone.com/

[Luigi]

Hi AstroGlenn
I was in the same boat, but picked up a set of Hawthorne SIs locally.
These are fun, more dynamic than the Visatons.
Initially not the midrange, with their passive crossover, but a cap change to the tweeter and move to B&C DE10s I had on hand changed this.
I like the time alignment thing with dual concentrics and their simple cyclops look.
Plus lots of upgrade paths. Next for me is the Radian 475PB-8 tweeter, which requires not much in the way of crossover changes. Plus you can upgrade the woofer to the Sterling jobbie. Or you can just go the whole hog and buy the Sterling SI outright.
If you've just won the lottery, you might want to consider their Ref Rainier speaker which uses an exotic mid-tweeter (actually on old Heil design they've done work on and upgraded). see the thread here: http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3850

[SteveRB]

Thanks,

I looked seriously at the Hawthonre woofers. Right now I am on the fence between them and the GR Research

[Luigi]

Astronaut Glen

For the latest on the Hawthornes see below: they are like another speaker altogether now.

Recall  I mentioned that the PSI was tweaker-friendly?

Pulled the crossover out yesterday and replaced it with a series crossover, minus caps. Designed by Peter Thomsen of Acoustic Reality in Denmark.

Installed and tweaked it as per instructions yesterday.

OMG.  These thing really can sing.

Never heard the treble so crisp and detailed, never heard the bass so right. Even using them without 15-inch OB augmentation they sound fine.

It takes a bit of messing around getting the inductor and resistor values right by ear, but that doesnt take long.

This crossover is supposedly amp-friendly too.

The Hawthornes really are amongst the best of the OB driver sets available, especially at the price. They work fine enough right off, but they just respond so nicely to being tweaked.

Unfortunately, few others seem to have tried this so it's a case of n=1 recommendation.

What I do know is that these speakers now don't care about sound quality recording; it all plays back nicely. And they play low volumes well too; the detail is still discernible.

As always YMMV

[SteveRB]

Having talked with both Danny at GR Research and Darryl at Hawthorne and various owners, i have chosen to go with the GR for several reasons.

Danny has a V1 kit still in stock that I have purchased and will pick up in a couple weeks. I will likely be posting my entire build process in the GR thread on AC. Thanks again for the input.