[Bigfishhk]

SORRY I POSTED THIS TWICE BY ACCIDENT. HOW TO DELETE?
Athem integrated amp, infinity kappa 8.1 speakers, Sony DVD player (soon to be upgraded)

For my 2nd system I am looking into bargain cables. Never bought monoprice. Thinking of getting their 12 or 14 awg speaker cable, banana plugs, and some interconnects.

System in bedroom. Low volume listening levels.

How are the monoprice cables, and is there anything else comparable? BJc are good IMHO, but pricier.

Thanks fellow cheap and cheerful audiophiles!
Tom

[Atlplasma]

I bought Monoprice hdmi cables, an audio/video wireless transmitter, some rca interconnects, a headphone, and various other pieces. Value-wise, it is hard to beat.

[Bigfishhk]

I bought Monoprice hdmi cables, an audio/video wireless transmitter, some rca interconnects, a headphone, and various other pieces. Value-wise, it is hard to beat.

are u happy with sound Q and build?
I don't really buy into expensive cables, but obviously I don't want poorly made cables, no matter the price!
thanks
TOm

[DS-21]

How are the monoprice cables, and is there anything else comparable? BJc are good IMHO, but pricier.

Depends on which monoprice cables.

I wouldn't use their clear-jacketed speaker wires again. I'm sure sonically they do nothing wrong, but they get ugly. The insulation isn't gas tight, and the whole thing quickly turns green!

Their "in wall" speaker cables are fine. If I needed speaker wire, I'd probably buy a roll of their in-wall 16/4 or 14/4. (I like the four-conductor ones because they tend to be more flexible.)

Another option is to see if you have any aircraft or military contractor surplus places around. They'll often sell you wire that's great for speakers (typically silver-plated* copper in PTFE insulation, which is corrosion-resistant, durable, flexible, and thin) for scrap prices.

*some mil-spec wire is tin-plated. There isn't a sonic difference, and no functional one unless you intend to solder connections to it. Tin-plated doesn't solder as well as silver-plated, though for crimped connections, or screw connections they'll work identically. So if you plan on soldering, just look up the code printed on the wire on your phone to see if it's plated in silver or tin.

[Bigfishhk]

Depends on which monoprice cables.

I wouldn't use their clear-jacketed speaker wires again. I'm sure sonically they do nothing wrong, but they get ugly. The insulation isn't gas tight, and the whole thing quickly turns green!

actually i was looking at the 12awg speaker wires which seem to be clear jacketed as you say.
 (12AWG Enhanced Loud Oxygen-Free Copper Speaker Wire Cable)
having said that it's a $15 outlay to find out if they are oxygen free!
before they went green, how about SQ?
DO you think you would get better sonic Q with say Blue jeans cable? My own experience with cable upgrades is not worth the money, though I have never heard the monoprice ones.
Tom

 

[DS-21]

actually i was looking at the 12awg speaker wires which seem to be clear jacketed as you say.
 (12AWG Enhanced Loud Oxygen-Free Copper Speaker Wire Cable)
having said that it's a $15 outlay to find out if they are oxygen free!

Yeah, those are the crap ones. They may start out oxygen free, but don't stay that way...

I forgot to add above that the insulation also goes brittle over time, and can flake off when you try to bend an older piece of the stuff. It's just not any good. I'd avoid it.

before they went green, how about SQ?

Reasonable people of moderate or better intelligence do not give credence to phenomena that do not exist, such as the "sound" of audio wiring. They don't tend to believe in Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster, either.

When wires have sound, it's because they're held in tension and placed above a soundboard, such as here:

And even then, they don't have sound until they're physically touched!

DO you think you would get better sonic Q with say Blue jeans cable?

Absolutely not, though you will get a higher quality product. If I were you, I'd go for the middle ground between the cheap-and-tacky (Monoprice shotgun wire) and the expensive-but-quality (BJC), which is the Monoprice in-wall. Much better-looking than the former, a good bit cheaper than the latter. The quality of the Monoprice in-wall isn't as good as the Belden or Canare wire BJC uses, but it isn't materially worse, either; it'll do the job, and hold up over time.

I would be perfectly comfortable running Monoprice in-wall wire to TAD Reference Ones, Revel Salon/2's, KEF Reference 207/2's, GedLee Summas, Gradient Revolutions, or any other elite-level speaker, confident that the wire would pass the amplifier's output to the loudspeakers with complete transparency.

[Bigfishhk]

I would be perfectly comfortable running Monoprice in-wall wire to TAD Reference Ones, Revel Salon/2's, KEF Reference 207/2's, GedLee Summas, Gradient Revolutions, or any other elite-level speaker, confident that the wire would pass the amplifier's output to the loudspeakers with complete transparency.
[/quote]

How about audible difference between 12 and 16 awg if wire is less than 15 ft long?
Tx

[DS-21]

How about audible difference between 12 and 16 awg if wire is less than 15 ft long?

The short answer is, "none."

The longer answer is, it depends on the minimum impedance of your speakers. But at <15', the differences even using speakers with extremely low impedance minima (i.e. speakers that need to be driven by amps that can serve as arc welders in addition to reproducing musical waveforms) is de minimis.

That said, if you're at all worried about that, spend the few pennies per foot extra and get the 12AWG. (Or 16/4, which is effectively 13AWG.) The only possible actual difference is marginally less loss and lower impedance with the thicker wire.

A further caveat is that if you want the speakers to sound more like they're being driven by a crappy (usually, but not always, tube) amp with a high output impedance, run a very thin speaker wire. Like 30AWG. Super-thin wire will act like a resistor, effectively raising the output impedance of the amp and forcing the amp into a non-flat frequency response that tracks the impedance curve of the loudspeaker. High output impedance is where "tube sound" (i.e. colored midrange) really comes from.

[Barry_NJ]

I like 18/5 thermostat wire...

Click the pic

I've also tried the 3 wire version...

Click the pic

But I felt the 5 wire added a bit more warmth and body, without hurting the transparency and air. Very neutral, and so inexpensive, it can't hurt to try it

Also, for clarification, the extra leg is wired to positive(+) at the amp end, and on the Reference 3.5 connects to the OPT plug. For speakers without the OPT connection, the extra leg should be stripped for a couple of inches and wrapped back around the dielectric, and then covered with heat-shrink or electrical tape.

I had discussed the higher wire counts with Anthony (18/7, 18/8) and he felt that they had heavier insulation and that the capacitance of the bundle increases to a point where it becomes detrimental.

According to Anthony, the additional positive wire is used to charge the dielectric, and help nullify its capacitive effect on the wire, and on his reference speakers the polystyrene speaker fill. In Anthony's speakers with the OPT treatment there is a wire that is wrapped around the internal wiring and also running through the speaker fill. I haven't played with it on regular speakers, but I do notice its effect with my Reference 3.5 speakers. Its effect is not instantly and markedly different, but after I'd used it for a bit, and then unplugged it, I really didn't get as involved with the music, and hooking it up again was mandatory for me.

here is a picture of my wireing...


speaker_wire by Barry (NJ), on Flickr

So for non-OPT speakers, the white wire should be the same length as the others, but be stripped leaving only a 1/4" of insulation exposed at the speaker end. Then the bare wire should be bent back and wrapped around the bundle so that is makes contact with the insulation of all the other wires and then the brown outer insulation as well. Then that exposed bit can be covered with electrical tape or heat-shrink tubing to prevent accidental shorting.

[DS-21]

I had discussed the higher wire counts with Anthony ***

If "Anthony" is Anthony Gallo, his speaker wire is utter garbage. The 18AWG solid core crap he peddles easily breaks inside the jacket if you try to bend it at all, leading to very audible differences compared to competent speaker wire that maintains continuity even if you run it around baseboards, etc. so that it remains inconspicuous.

I once wasted a good couple hours troubleshooting a friend's system, that used the original Gallo baby balls and the little bass ball with an 8" Peerless woofer inside, and a passive crossover, all connected with that risible garbage (18/4). It took so long only because I didn't even consider that the problem could be internal to the speaker wire. I only use competently engineered stuff, so that failure mode was previously unknown to me.

We replaced it with competent wire, and so far as I know that system is still running over a decade later. (And sounds decent; not much output, but great imaging.) I'm sure the dealer made a mint selling my gullible friend "Anthony's" recommended wire, though.

So anything based on Gallo's advice, I'd be inclined to do the exact opposite.

***after I'd used it for a bit, and then unplugged it, I really didn't get as involved with the music***

Really? That sounds like a cry for help more than anything else.

[Barry_NJ]

Gee Thanks DS! And why do I value you opinion?

[raindance]

This is an amusing series of posts, DS-21. I am officially a fan. 

[Devil Doc]

"Wait for it."

Doc

[Letitroll98]

SORRY I POSTED THIS TWICE BY ACCIDENT. HOW TO DELETE?

Done.


And a reminder to please treat other members with respect, no matter how silly their ideas may seem to you.  Debate on issues is fine, personal attacks will be squashed.  Not accusing anyone yet, just saying....


Finally, for the OP.  I've been meaning to try the White Lightning Moonshine speaker cable.  Similar, but not the same, to Barry's home brew, only using Wal Mart extension cord.  http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/whitelightning/moonshine.html   Note this is not the Nordost product of a similar name, although their White Lightning speaker cable is moderately priced for a retail cable, nothing like a Cheap and Cheerful product.

I like DS-21's idea of Mil spec cables too, there is tons of surplus cable of extraordinary quality available for the DIY person, and DIY cable building is fine for even the rank amateur.  Unlike DS-21, I think you can get significant differences in speaker cables by altering geometry and material, in that order.  There are sound engineering reasons for this that are well documented and easily researched on the web.  I would not recommend either silver plated nor tinned copper wires, go with pure OFC copper, or pure silver, or an alloy.

If you don't like DIY, Zu Audio has some great specials on eBay running all the time.  Just put Zu Audio in the search.   

[Bigfishhk]

Done.


And a reminder to please treat other members with respect, no matter how silly their ideas may seem to you.  Debate on issues is fine, personal attacks will be squashed.  Not accusing anyone yet, just saying....

Finally, for the OP.  I've been meaning to try the White Lightning Moonshine speaker cable.

If you don't like DIY, Zu Audio has some great specials on eBay running all the time.  Just put Zu Audio in the search.

will look into these suggestions, thanks. Nothing like mentioning cables to stir up a bit of passion on AC (not my intention must be said)
Tom

[pumpkinman]

Barry if he gives you anymore grief call in the troops 

[Letitroll98]

Nothing like mentioning cables to stir up a bit of passion on AC (not my intention must be said)
Tom

Which is kinda silly on the C&C circle.  I mean, it's not like anyone's gonna splurge on mega buck cables in an under $1000 system.  There was originally a rule about only DIY cables on C&C, but I've always waived that as long as we're talking DIY type prices.

Slightly off topic, but I am working with a DAC JohnR sent me that he couldn't get to sound right, and I was having some problems with it too.  I'd made some progress getting it to sound better and thought I'd throw an Audiophile power cable to spice it up even more.  While the fancy PC ostensibly sounded better, much bigger and tighter bass, way more detail, it actually screwed up the sound totally, everything was fake and strident.  Went back to the PC that I think came from a flat screen TV and magic again.  Goes to show while there may be differences, it's not always the high priced spread that's better.  All power to Cheap and Cheerful HiFi!

[JohnR]

Surplus Cat6 is cheap. Join all eight strands together gives 14ga. Use another for the other leg and twist. You can also try more fancy wiring geometries .

[e.man]

to the OP. RE: cheap speaker cables.  Search 'White Lightning - Moonshine'.

[Bigfishhk]

Which is kinda silly on the C&C circle.  I mean, it's not like anyone's gonna splurge on mega buck cables in an under $1000 system.   All power to Cheap and Cheerful HiFi!

Just to add that I am finding that I enjoy listening to my approx $1200 second system (quality used components) as much as my 1st system that cost 5 times the price. It is not quite as refined blah blah, but it sounds great and I worry less about perfection and enjoy the music more.
IMHO the more you spend the more you tinker and fuss (which is probably the point for many people)
If I started from scratch I'd do it all from info gleaned from Cheap and cheerful board.
And I would have known enough to avoid that expensive NYC stereo shop when I started this hobby, and NOT bought $400 of biwire speaker cable, which cost me more than the amp I bought at the time!
Live and learn.
Next up will be a SB touch bought for $219 from Amazon.
Viva Cheap and Cheerful!

And a sidenote, I got an email from an AC-er with spare monoprice cable and he's sending me some gratis. So I'll give that a shot. Sure it will be just fine. Big thanks.
Tom