[Nick77]

Hi i am considering a new table with attached Yamaha Mc-1 cart. I dont know anything about mc carts, i really want to buy the table (sony ps-x70)but not spend more money getting it to work in my system.
I own a modded 640p preamp with mm/mc setting, will this combo even work and what would it sound like(real low volume?)

I believe the mc-1 has 0.2mv output and the 640p input (MM=3.35mV; MC=0.5mV)

What does this translate into real life?? Would i need to buy a step-up transformer to even listen to this table? My classD amplifier has adjustable gain if that might help??

Thanks

[tomytoons]

What you have listed are the sensitivity numbers.

The Cambridge 640P has a "gain" of 39db in MM and 55db in MC. Unless it was changed in the Mod you did. Probably not.

I would say your MC1 with an output of .2mv (on the low side) will not work well in the volume dept. You would need a sep-up trannie and put it in on the MM side of the Cambridge.

Some Phono's as in the Jasmine LP2.0 MKII offer 70db gain on the MC side and would be enough to run the MC1. I ran a Denon Dl103R right into a Jasmine with no problems.

How old is the MC1? Overall condition? Not familiar with it, was it a good performer?
This would determine if you should pursue the LOW OUTPUT MC
sound of this cartridge.

The Sony is from 1978
http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-PS-X70.html

[neobop]

Hi Nick,
IMO you ought to plug it into the MC side of your 640 and give it a try.  Then you can tell us the situation.  If you're not sure of the condition of the tip, maybe it would be better to use an expendable record.

[Nick77]

Den thanks for the input. I am trying to determine worst case senerio before pulling the trigger on the deck.

What is the least expensive step up transformer if 640p doesnt work?

The result most likely would be low volume output (no bass?)??

I cant find much info on the cart, but suppose to be well regarded. Most likely made by AT for Yamaha specs.

The table is in mint condition but hasnt been used in twenty years. Cant test cart because he no longer has phono.

[Photon46]

IME, it's unlikely a .2 mv. output cartridge is going to work well with an input sensitivity like that. If you don't want to bother with the expense and hassle of using a step up transformer, use a cartridge with higher output of at least .5 mv., preferably more like .8mv. While you may get music out of the .2 mv. cartridge and the 640p, diminished dynamics, higher noise, and inadequate volume are likely problems. Hope I'm wrong though. It is often frustrating trying to get a low output moving coil set up well at first. If the 640p proves inadequate, I'd vote for a new cartridge instead of getting a transformer to use the older moving coil. You might find a decent step up transformer for a couple hundred bucks used.

[tomytoons]

Some of the least expensive Step-up's I have seen are the used Denon's still ($180 up) BUT, you need to know the specs on the M1 to choose a step-up.
At this point as was stated I wouldn't bother with it. Use a different cartridge.
That table was a top Sony DD  in 1978, big and heavy, also an electronic nightmare if something does not work. If it  had been sitting for 20 years check it out carefully no matter how cheap it is. Don't need headaches.

Much less to go wrong with the manual tables.

[orientalexpress]

or get this one here on AC ,u can't go wrong with this cartridge http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=107309.0


lapsan

[kgturner]

or get this one here on AC ,u can't go wrong with this cartridge http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=107309.0


lapsan

+1 

For what it's worth, I used the Benz Micro on a VPI Scoutmaster with the Cambridge 640P as my first vinyl setup. The Benz and 640P mate very well together.

Kevin T

[tomytoons]

That is a low output cartridge at .5mv so caution.
If Kevin T says it works with the 640 it works!
I was looking at it myself. Good price.

[kgturner]

My preamp is a Supratek Dual Cabernet which already has high gain. I'm not certain what the Nick is using. I found this quote about LOMC and the 640P on another forum:

"fwiw, I use a stock 640p on a Denon DL103r with .25 mv output and the 640p provides more gain than enough gain."

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-440709.html (reference)

I think Nick should try the Yamaha cart with the 640P before committing more money to anything else, assuming the Yamaha is in good condition.

Kevin T

[neobop]

I didn't realize this is only under consideration.

As far as adequate gain - it will probably depend on the rest of your system, mostly linestage and speakers.  Some linestages have 20dB or more gain.  Others have 10 or 12dB, and a passive will have 0. 

I suspect the Yamaha MC-1 might be outstanding.  I don't remember hearing one, but the specs are like the MC-1000 which had a non-magnetic coil core. I have the same arm as this Sony, it's a  PUA-7.  It's rather heavy with an eff mass of 20g w/stock headshell.  I tried the HO version of the Benz MC-20 that's for sale, and it worked beautifully on that arm.  With .5mV you'd have full output from the 640.

If you get it and the MC-1 output is too low, I'd get a new phono stage before I'd mess with transformers. That's my 2 cents, but keep in mind that output is .2mV and impedance is 30 ohms.

[Toni Rambold]

The Yamaha MC-1 was a very good cartridge from the good old days (1979).

There were two versions available:

Yamaha MC-1X: SME compatible headshell
Yamaha MC-1S: half inch

Compliance: 18 x 10-6 cm/dyne
Output Voltage: 0,37 mV / 1 kHz, 8 cm/sec, 100 Ohm

[neobop]

The Yamaha MC-1 was a very good cartridge from the good old days (1979).

There were two versions available:

Yamaha MC-1X: SME compatible headshell
Yamaha MC-1S: half inch

Compliance: 18 x 10-6 cm/dyne
Output Voltage: 0,37 mV / 1 kHz, 100 Ohm

Looks like we had wrong specs for the MC-1.  With .37mV output, you'll have full gain from the 640, if that is enough.  That aspect is looking much better.  Compliance seems a little high for that arm, but you never know until you try.  Maybe it's the integral headshell version?  That cart could have been on there and used successfully for 30 years. I'd think that a worn needle might be of greater concern.

Other carts that work well on that arm are the inexpensive AT-95 and AT-7V, Clearaudio - a lighter headshell helps with these.  Also, many MCs like that Benz will be fine.  It's hard to predict from specs.  At one point I had an old Pioneer 401MC HOMC on there.  It worked just fine despite being of relatively high compliance.

[Toni Rambold]

I'd think that a worn needle might be of greater concern.

That's right !

Beryllium is vaporized by a laser beam at 2900° Celsius (vacuum technology)
to build a seamless cantilever with a wall thickness of 35µm.
The needle is attached to the copper carrier when the beryllium cantilever is
built.

[Nick77]

Looks like we might be back to 0.2mv. Found this spec on Yamaha site. I am going to try it out and report back.

Type   MC cartridge
Armature   Air core coil plate laminated aluminum thin film (layer 2)
Magnetic circuit   Yokuresu, dual magnetic circuit differential
Conversion characteristic   Differential manner
Vibration system   One-point suspension
Stylus   Diamond 0.1mm special elliptical stylus angle
Cantilever   High-purity beryllium, tapered pipe
Equivalent mass vibration system   0.25mg
Braking system   Shear bond braking system I seat
Housing case   Rigid die-cast aluminum structure
Output voltage   0.2mV (1kHz, 5cm/sec, Peak45 °)
Channel balance   More than 28dB (1kHz)
more than 25dB (10kHz)
over 20dB (20kHz)
Electrical impedance   (Within 20% pure resistance, balance) 30Ω ± 20%
Playback frequency range   10Hz ~ 20kHz (capacity: 60kHz)
Needle pressure   1.8 ± 0.2g
Static compliance   38 × 10 -6 cm / dyne (twenty-five ° C.)
Dynamic compliance   Eleven × 10 -6 cm / dyne (twenty-five ° C.)
Vertical tracking angle   20 ° ± 2 °
Needle tip   Special elliptical diamond stylus 8 × 40 micron
Weight   MC-1X: 18.5 ± 0.1 g
MC-1S: 7.8 ± 0.1 g
Needle exchange   Body replacement (\ 31,500): MC-1X
MC-1S: body replacement (\ 24,500)

[neobop]

Armature   Air core coil plate laminated aluminum thin film (layer 2)
Cantilever   High-purity beryllium, tapered pipe

That's extraordinary, a rare beast indeed, as rare as a Klingon kangaroo.
If not enough gain I'd sell the 640 or put it on another system.  Good luck.

[Nick77]

Armature   Air core coil plate laminated aluminum thin film (layer 2)
Cantilever   High-purity beryllium, tapered pipe

That's extraordinary, a rare beast indeed, as rare as a Klingon kangaroo.
If not enough gain I'd sell the 640 or put it on another system.  Good luck.

Thanks....... I did hear back from the 640p master modder, and a simple install of a pair of 18r resistors will yield 6db more gain if needed. 

[Toni Rambold]

At some points I believe in the measurements !

So when the well-damped resonance frequency peak with an SME 3009/II
is at 7 Hz, don't tell me the dynamic compliance is 11 x 10-6 cm/dyne.
I guess that's the 100 Hz value.

There was a third cart in the same line: The JVC MC-1.
I guess all three carts are OEM.
A review of all three carts is in TAS 17.

[neobop]

At some points I believe in the measurements !

So when the well-damped resonance frequency peak with an SME 3009/II
is at 7 Hz, don't tell me the dynamic compliance is 11 x 10-6 cm/dyne.
I guess that's the 100 Hz value.

There was a third cart in the same line: The JVC MC-1.
I guess all three carts are OEM.
A review of all three carts is in TAS 17.

Toni,
I can't read the brochure or article you posted.  Is there any other vital info?

I think most Japanese mfg still measure dynamic cu at 100Hz.  That would include Denon, AT, Nagaoka.  In the heyday it was common for Japanese companies that weren't cart manufacturers, to use others as OEM, like Coral being the OEM for SAE-1000. Satin was OEM for some Sony MCs, and AT still is an OEM. 

The MC-1 has some desirable features.  It's an air core coil, meaning it has no magnet or permeable material in the coil.  This is like a air core speaker inductor, as opposed to an iron core. Also, beryllium hasn't been used for a long time in cantilevers, due to toxicity.  But this isn't just a flat piece of beryllium, it's a tapered pipe. I'm assuming pipe means tube, which has superior rigidity and is light weight. Sometimes translations are inexact. Finally, it seems like the cart was mfg to have a user replaceable body. When the tip wore out, the whole motor assembly could be removed from the carrier, and replaced with new.  This is the same as the Pioneer 401-MC, HOMC, I mentioned.  They were probably mfg by the same OEM.

[Toni Rambold]

Sorry, I stand corrected !

The output voltage of 0,37 mV / 1 kHz, 8 cm/sec, 0 dB, 100 Ohm is related to a measurement with a DIN 45549 test record.

The Japanese use the TSR 1005(JVC) test record with an 1 kHz lateral mono signal at 5 cm/sec.
The appropriate conversion factor due to the amplitude differences would yield to an output voltage of 0,16 mV.

This is really a low output MC.

Toni,
I can't read the brochure or article you posted.  Is there any other vital info?

a lot of measurements with DIN and the Shure TTR-103 records and a short description of the sound characteristics (on the yin side).