[John Casler]

OK, OK, OK,!

I know it sounds silly, and I know the temp is probably only 27 degrees or so, but When I rolled the stock tubes out of my MiniMax, I just put them in the freezer. (Don't ask me why??? )

Fast forward 3 months:

I receive my new 626R speaker and want to break them in, but don't want the hours on my NOS tubes, so I swap the "stockies" back in again.

Of course I give the tubes an hour to reach room temp before firing them up, and they are sounding pretty darn good.  

MUCH BETTER than my previous recollection of the difference with the NOS's

Hey, who knows what, if anything, is going on here, but I would suggest anyone who can, try it out and report.  Might have just been my ears, or the fact that the speakers weren't broken in, or whatever, but now that I have switched back (had the NOS in the Freezer 3 weeks) "THEY" too are sounding better.

So if anyone does try this, let me know.  I know at a molecualr level that these temps don't offer the same effect as "real cryo" treatment, but it seems they do, do something.

[Jon L]

John, sounds like you're having fun over there.

As far as the freezer thing, many people have reported improvements with various audio stuff after freezer.  The only problem, though, is that the temperatures used in freezer is not a permanent "cryo" and supposed to revert back in certain time period.

In fact, many claim the deep-cryo using liquid nitrogen isn't "permanent," either.  Of course, these kinds of things are extremely hard to hear as the change is very, very slow.  Only way is to know is to A-B 2 exact same parts, one cryo'd and used for a long time and another just cryo'd.

[John B]

I'd worry about freezer burn  

[John Casler]

John, sounds like you're having fun over there.

As far as the freezer thing, many people have reported improvements with various audio stuff after freezer.  The only problem, though, is that the temperatures used in freezer is not a permanent "cryo" and supposed to revert back in certain time period.

In fact, many claim the deep-cryo using liquid nitrogen isn't "permanent," either.  Of course, these kinds of things are extremely hard to hear as the change is very, very slow.  Only way is to know is to A-B 2 exact same parts, one cryo'd and used for a long time and another just cryo'd.

Hi Jon,

I was having fun until "Daddy took the T-bird"  

Anyhow you raise an interesting point that has two parts.

1) Many cryo-treat cables, and other components and the idea (as I understand it) is that as the substance cools is contracts and the space between the molecules is reduced.  This reduction of space allows for a more efficient flow of electrons via less distance to cover and greater contact area.

If this is the significant function of "cryo" then what happens when

2) They heat up.  A tube obviously not only goes back to room temperature (as a cable) but it actually heat up and of course the inevitable "expansion" which comes with heating.

I guess the question is, Is the effect I'm getting (if even real) be very temporary, or will repeated coolings (I now have the stock tubes back in the freezer) slowly reduce the intra-molecular space over time.

Or for that matter would it be even better to take hot or warm tubes and pop them in the freezer to take advantage of maximum operating temperature to cryo in a shorter time period?

In any even, I am having fun with this, but would be interested to see if anyone else gets a positive or negative take (or no take at all)

[John Casler]

I'd worry about freezer burn  

I use Glad Bag ZipLock Freezer bags which are supposed to prevent it.

OKAY, I'm just kidding

[Carlman]

My guess has always been that cryo-treating probably only works the first time something is used.  The cryo service peddlers only provide results directly after treatment.. not after actual use.  The claims that it is 'permanent' never have any factual evidence.  I'm not saying there isn't any, just not where I've been reading.

As to the 27* cryo treatment, I would think the extremes of the heat and cool would cause more fatigue and early failure rather than any benefit.... especially using the 'freeze 'em while they're hot' method.

I used to put batteries in the fridge to recharge them.

[Bill O'Connell]

Hi John,
 
 After reading reading your first post I figured ok ,I'll give this a try.
My better half had quite a laugh and she quipped " Now I've seen it all". I explained the theory behind my strange behaviour and she mumbled something about foolishness.
 She now makes me wear this little hat whenever I go to the fridge.  


Have a great Memorial Day weekend,

Later,
 Bill

[ghersh]

OK, OK, OK,!

I know it sounds silly, and I know the temp is probably only 27 degrees or so, but When I rolled the stock tubes out of my MiniMax, I just put them in the freezer. (Don't ask me why??? )


MUCH B ...

so that's why people say ICEPOWER-based amplifiers remind them the sound of tubes ...

Gee, I've finally learned something here ...

[eico1]

I'd worry about freezer burn  :lol:

I use Glad Bag ZipLock Freezer bags which are supposed to prevent it.

OKAY, I'm just kidding :lol:

hey no kidding , moisture/condensation is more likely causing measurable changes is some 'frozen' equipment!

Considering the working temperature of a tube is pretty high, the storage temp of 25 degrees lower than ambient isn't much of a big deal. Its water that cares about the magic at 0 C.  

steve

[BrianME]

The topic of using a home freezer has been around for about 15 yrs., if I remember correctly.  And, I believe it was Peter Belt who first introduced the theory.

The suppostion was that if an audio item (tubes, cables, CDs, even equipment) was frozen in a home freezer (which is typically at about 0 degrees f) and slowly brought back to room temperature, there was very often an improvement in sound.  A typical procedure would be to place the item in the freezer overnight and the following morning to move it to the refrigerator (for a slow warmup) and then, when you come home from work, remove it from the refrigerator and let it sit for a few hours before introducing it back into the system.  Several of the early experiments suggested that a second freeze / thaw cycle could offer some further improvement, but essentially no change with any further cycles.

I have done this with many items over the last three or four years.  There is no cost and it takes almost none of my time.  I always use baggies to prevent any substantial frost formation.  And, in my case, results are variable and often unpredictable.    A particular cable or tube may seem to change substantially, while others may end up with ambiguous results.  I have not noticed that any improvements have deteriorated over time.  

Since the advent of cryo treatments (most of my power cords and a few of my interconnects have been cryo'd)  some comments have been posted to the effect that home freezing couldn't possibly be any good because the temperature is so far away from true cryo.  I certainly have no argument about temperature differences, but the success of one does not necessarily discredit the other.  

Some carefully done experiments might help, but only marginally.  For example, three identical sets of interconnects that have been fully and equally broken in.  One remains a base line, one goes through a couple of home freeze thaw cycles, and one is cryo'd.  If several listeners could, independently (group analysis is, IMHO, often flawed) all agree on which sounded the best, would the result extrapolate to other cables and equipment.  No.  It is all the blessed variables that continually entrance and confound us.

In any case, if you are interested, it might be worth a try.   I've had enough good results, and never any negatives, that I will continue to experiment from time to time.  A little success story -- I once had a DAC that just would not relax, no matter how many hundreds of hours of play time I put on it.  Out of frustration, I carefully wrapped it in plastic and tossed it into the freezer for 24 hrs., then the refrig for 24, and a final slow warmup to room temperature (must be careful about condensation).  The result was a very noticeable, nice step in the right direction.  Tonal characteristics were unchanged, but the presentation was less mechanical, more immediate, more musical.  Still is - that was three years ago.  

P. S.  Putting component equipment into the freezer makes me nervous and I've only done it a couple of times.  A little moisture in the wrong spot could be big trouble when you turn it on again.  If you wanted to try with an old piece of equipment, wrap in plastic carefully and, to be safe, when it gets back to room temperature, remove the plastic wrap and let it sit for at least another 24 hrs.  

A great weekend to you all,
Brian Elliott

[John Casler]

hey no kidding , moisture/condensation is more likely causing measurable changes is some 'frozen' equipment!

Considering the working temperature of a tube is pretty high, the storage temp of 25 degrees lower than ambient isn't much of a big deal. Its water that cares about the magic at 0 C.  

steve

Since a "vacumn tube" has no air in it, I would think that the only condensation would be external.  As long as the tube is allowed to return to room temperature, I would think any external condenstion could be wiped off.

Mine were totally dry.

I did however "SilClear" all the prongs.

[rewster]

For the third time..

  Hi all, visiting to say hello from dear old UK I noted athreasd I could usefully contribute to, and posted twice. Having made no secret of the fact that I am a Director of a Cryo firm here, and not suggesting that anyone should buy a service or product from that firm.....I note that both posts have been removed. I didn't think I had breached any of the forum rules, and certainly would have responded to a PM that explained any concerns your moderators might have had.

  Just being wiped out is pretty unpleasant for a visitor and fellow hifi fan, and not agreat advert for the forum. Please let me know how I 'got it wrong' and at least allow me the decency of offering an apology if neccessary.

[rewster]

[JohnR]

It's in Market Square. The Two-channel circle guidelines are http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=4374">here.

[rewster]

Thanks John.

[rewster]

By the way,

  I am a little surprised now to see my posts had been moved wheb I have also noted manufacturers/processors here direct 'plugging' their gear without retribution.

  Hey, if it's that cliquey here, maybe I just shouldn't visit?

[Red Dragon Audio]

By the way,

  I am a little surprised now to see my posts had been moved wheb I have also noted manufacturers/processors here direct 'plugging' their gear without retribution.

  Hey, if it's that cliquey here, maybe I just shouldn't visit?

Hey Rewster,

You are welcome here anytime!  Hope I am not assuming too much but maybe you saw manufacturers boasting of their products here but in their own forums.  Don't know if you saw that or not but there are manufacturer forums where they can rave about their own gear all day.

Well hope you keep visiting and don't let this one little hiccup keep you from coming back frequently.  The AudioCircle is a fun place with plenty of informative and friendly people (I'm friendly but not really informative).

Cheers!

[TheChairGuy]

Rewster,

JohnR is in OZ, so don't think he's 'dissing' you if it takes a while to get an answer back. He started AudioCircle over a year ago and has a fulltime job that pays the bills (mostly, I guess   ).

He's just a passionate audiophile, like you, that happens to be an ace computer programmer.

A lot of us retreated here because of too much bickering, due to lack of moderation, at other forums.  Maybe we overmoderate a bit too much, but it's an art, not science, and constantly evolving.  We all do the best we can.  I'm just one of the volunteer moderators (in Audio Central).

To be frank, if you posted your exact same responses in Audio Central, I would've moved you to Market Square.  Your response wasn't a in-your-face blatant grab for business, but it smacked of more than a bit of it.  It's a fine line, other manufucturers have been here for a time and it is common knowledge what they do...and probably get some more leeway then a new poster/manufacturer.  We're not trying to offend; it's just a fine line.  

I wish I had a profession that even remotely helps audiophiles achieve better fidelity, but alas, I don't. It wouldn't be a big stretch for you to figure out what I do for profession.  
 
Anyhow, stick around,  and don't be so miffed, there's a good bunch of guys here.  We could definitely use your knowlege about cryo processes and having some more membership in the UK as it makes things a lot more interesting.  

AC hasn't been around long enough to be cliquey, I think.  

Neat to know where Max Townsend's Isolda Cables come from..I have seen some of the great reviews for them.  I had one of the first original Rock TT's Max sold here in the US in 1987..what a great piece of work that was.

[lonewolfny42]

I wish I had a profession that even remotely helps audiophiles achieve better fidelity, but alas, I don't.

Hey ChairGuy , You can't make a chair for audiophile's..... as far as I know most people sit down  and listen

[TheChairGuy]

Wolfy,

Mine are all portable, but I sit in one sometimes to listen (more comfy than my office chair).  It's folded up in my closet ready to go whenever.

Making 'upholstered'/indoor furniture is a whole different head and ballgame.  I'll leave that to the La-Z Boy's of the world to do it better, I think.