One vs Multiple Subs and why?

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medium jim

One vs Multiple Subs and why?
« on: 25 May 2012, 05:37 am »
This will be a good subject to get the ball rolling.  I personally feel that two or more subs are better than one as it gives energy and a more realistic placement of the instruments in the soundstage and for me is easier to integrate, but that is me and YMMV.

Jim

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Re: One vs Multiple Subs and why?
« Reply #1 on: 25 May 2012, 05:56 am »
What goes for two full-range speakers is only worse with one, because there's even less smoothing of room modes.

And two full-range speakers just can't do high-fidelity bass.

I could write a long post, but I recently wrote a piece and it's easier to just link. See http://seriousaudioblog.blogspot.com/2012/05/two-great-articles-on-multiple.html

woodsyi

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Re: One vs Multiple Subs and why?
« Reply #2 on: 25 May 2012, 03:07 pm »
Great article.  It's amazing how much I forget.  I read those before but I am reminded of somethings I have forgotten.  I think I am going to move one of my 4 subs to a corner and play around with poles on all of them.  I may also stagger the crossover between the mains and the front 2 to get the overlap encouraged by Dr. Geddes.  I can't really move the "side table" subs to "random" areas though. 

For modal regions, I think the subs are to be in phase to get the smoothing.  Would another sub out of phase help with the first modes?  In other words,  would two out phase subs far apart ameliorate first modes for the listener in the middle?








rbbert

Re: One vs Multiple Subs and why?
« Reply #3 on: 25 May 2012, 03:52 pm »
IIRC, the optimal positioning for 3 or 4 subs includes one at the junction of front wall and ceiling (in the middle)

fredgarvin

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Re: One vs Multiple Subs and why?
« Reply #4 on: 25 May 2012, 03:59 pm »
Do you feel a second sub is canceling the back wave reflection of the first sub? In my rectangular room the closest you get to the short wall behind you, the more prominent the bass from the backwave. There is a point where the sound becomes reverberant in a good way, it sounds like a live performance from stage, like an OB. The bass is too loud though and imaging is blurred of course. Does the second sub cancel or counteract some of these back waves?

cujobob

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Re: One vs Multiple Subs and why?
« Reply #5 on: 25 May 2012, 04:00 pm »

opnly bafld

Re: One vs Multiple Subs and why?
« Reply #6 on: 25 May 2012, 09:01 pm »

And two full-range speakers just can't do high-fidelity bass.


-1
Too many variables for this to be 100% true.

eclein

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Re: One vs Multiple Subs and why?
« Reply #7 on: 25 May 2012, 09:22 pm »
So I really can't just add one and throw it out in the room  huh!.......bummer, oh well its time to think once  more....LOL!!!

My amp has 1 sub output that is not powered so my 1st sub is a powered sub 10" inch. The Room is 18 X 12 roughly, my situation will only allow me to add another if I daisy chain it off the first with another powered sub. Although my pre-amp has two stereo RCA outs one is the main and the second goes to my headphone rig.  In my situation do I add a 12-15" inch  or 8-10" inch powered sub?
 

*Scotty*

Re: One vs Multiple Subs and why?
« Reply #8 on: 25 May 2012, 09:38 pm »
woodsyi, from your comments in the Proposals Circle, Bass Place thread, it appears that you have made a large change to your system, has this altered what the bottom end sounds like in your room?
Quote
I have Duke's swarm2 with 'Stats and no room treatment (no choice).  Instead of using one amp, I am using 2 (Dayton subwoofer amps) which allows me to play around with placement and phase of each sub (4).  I run the soundlabs full.   Subs are just augmenting the bottom.  I have played around with lowpass frequency anywhere from 40 to 120.   

Also do you think it will be easier to achieve a smooth bass response with a full-range dipole augmented by subs when you compare what it took to achieve the same goal with your RM 40s and multiple subs.
Scotty

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Re: One vs Multiple Subs and why?
« Reply #9 on: 25 May 2012, 10:04 pm »
my situation will only allow me to add another if I daisy chain it off the first with another powered sub.

That's fine, though adding an inexpensive multichannel processor such as a miniDSP or Behringer DCX2496 is better,

In my situation do I add a 12-15" inch  or 8-10" inch powered sub?

I hesitate to call anything with an 8" drive unit a "sub." I would add the biggest good sub you can fit.

kevin360

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Re: One vs Multiple Subs and why?
« Reply #10 on: 26 May 2012, 04:14 pm »
I have two planar systems and both include dual subs. Each started with one. Adding the second made a huge improvement to each system - greater smoothness. Honestly, I wish I had another pair of subs in the big rig. I'm seriously considering a pair to place on the side walls.  :icon_twisted:

medium jim

Re: One vs Multiple Subs and why?
« Reply #11 on: 26 May 2012, 04:55 pm »
DS-21:

I respectively disagree, I have a room that measures 16x15x8.5' and employ two 8" powered B&W subs and assure you that they go down to 20hz nicely and cleanly.  Moreover, they create more than enough energy. 

In a bigger room I would go with larger subs.  In fact, an important factor is matching the size of sub(s) to the room for proper loading and energy.

Jim

poseidonsvoice

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Re: One vs Multiple Subs and why?
« Reply #12 on: 26 May 2012, 05:57 pm »
Here is something I composed a while ago. Give it a read if you have time  :thumb:

It is basically a rehash of several experts (Earl Geddes, Todd Welti, Devantier, Floyd O'Toole) in the industry, (and one long term enthusiast and colleague - Duke LeJeune) whom I have credited at the end of this rather long soiree. None of this material was originally authored by me.

Regarding the setup of multiple subs. The minimum required is 3, the maximum most people use is 4, although you could use more. Once you use 4 or more, placement starts becoming far less critical.

Let's do some background first, and then come back to talk about bass in small rooms.

Background Theory

The first thing to know is, the ear/brain system can "average out" peaks and dips that are fairly close together (like within 1/3 of an octave of one another), but cannot average them out if they are far apart.  Second, the ear has poor resolution in the time domain at low frequencies, such that it takes at least one full cycle to detect, and several cycles to hear the pitch of, bass energy. 

Now with this background, let's look at bass reproduction in a small room (our home listening rooms are "small" in comparison with an auditorium).  Starting with a single subwoofer, we measure it in-room and find a disturbing peak-and-dip pattern; plus 6 dB and minus 9 dB swings are not uncommon.  These are totally room-induced, and we can change and re-arrange them by moving the subwoofer or the listener (microphone) position, but we cannot make them go away. 

Why are these bass region peaks and dips so bad?   Don't room reflections also cause nasty peaks and dips at midrange and treble frequencies?   And since the peaks and dips aren't present in the first-arrival sound, don't they look worse on paper than they really are?

While it's true that unsmoothed in-room measurements up into the midrange and treble region look like hash because of reflections, perceptually it's not so bad because 1) the ear detects the pitch quickly enough that these reflections have minimal effect on pitch definition; and 2) at these frequencies the room-induced peaks and dips are close enough together that the ear averages them out.  Unfortunately in the bass region, it takes several cycles for the ear to even begin to determine the pitch and by that time the room's effects are in full cry.  So perceptually we cannot separate the subwoofer from the room; they form a system.  Second, because the room is physically fairly small relative to bass wavelengths, the reflection-induced peaks and dips are far apart - too far apart for the ear to average them out.  So the rest of the spectrum may sound great, but the bass sounds artificial.

Equalization seems like a logical solution, and indeed can produce significant improvement at a single listening position.  But in most cases the specific bass problems are local, and equalization affects globally (throughout the room), so fixing the problems in one location will usually make the problems in another location worse.

The solution is to use multiple low-frequency sources scattered asymmetrically throughout the room.  This way each will produce a unique peak-and-dip pattern at the listening position, and the sum of these dissimilar peak-and-dip patterns will be significantly smoother than any one of them alone would have been.  The remaining peaks and dips will not only be smaller, they will also be closer together so the ear/brain system has a better chance of averaging them out.   

Just to be clear, a distributed multisub system not only reduces the variance at a given listening position, it also reduces the variance between different listening positions.  This makes it easier to equalize the in-room response because any remaining significant in-room problems tend to be global instead of local.  The drawback of course is the initial cost of the multisub system, and the real estate it occupies.

Now let's look at a big room for a moment - like an auditorium, or a good recital hall.  In this case the room boundaries are far enough away that the in-room peak-and-dip pattern in the bass region looks more like our small room would in the midrange region; that is, the peaks and dips are much closer together, so the ear can do its averaging-out trick.  This is one of the reasons bass often sounds much more natural in a big room.

As a general principle, frequency response at the listening position is the dominant factor in perceived bass quality.  Transient response is audible to the extent that it affects frequency response, but not much beyond that for a reason that we've already seen:  The ear has very poor resolution in the time domain at low frequencies.

So at what low frequency does the ear start to have poor resolution in the time domain? This is called the Schroeder frequency or transitional frequency.A great majority of small rooms (i.e. less than the size of an auditorium), has the Schroeder frequency at around 150-200 Hz. Because we can't localize sound sources below 150 Hz the use of additional subwoofers can smooth the frequency response at a given listening position or over a certain listening area.. Remember, a great, great, great majority of recordings do not have bass recorded in stereo. When you perceive that the bass is coming right of center or some other point in space, I think its because another higher frequency was being played at the same time and that is what you are localizing to. That's why I chuckle at the notion of 'stereo bass.' I ask, what frequency are you really talking about? What is a bass frequency? It's not 500 Hz mind you. It's much, much lower. For example if a bass guitar player, plays the lowest "E" string, it's about 42Hz. I cannot perceive any localization at that frequency. However, if he were to play that frequency along with one that is a few octaves higher, I may be able to appreciate 'localization.' I am not totally comfortable with this, but I believe the Haas precedence effect, and the Summing Localization effects have some input to this discussion.

One final thing that matters is the effects of room gain.  Briefly, the room will usually boost the low frequencies due to boundary reinforcement; as we go down in frequency more and more room surfaces fall within 1/4 wavelength of the source and thus we get more and more in-phase reinforcement from those nearby reflections.  The commonly perceived superiority of sealed over vented boxes is because the more gradual rolloff of a sealed box is a better matchup with typical room gain.  Outdoors where there is no room gain, vented boxes sound better - anecdotal evidence that it's the frequency response at the listening position, rather than the transient response (an area where sealed boxes excel), that has the biggest effect on perceived bass quality.

Application

Okay, now that you've got a background, lets talk about what Earl Geddes recommends for ideal bass. This is different from other experts such as Todd Welti and Floyd Toole of Harmon Kardon. Their research and algorithm for minimizing spatial variation of the low frequency response by using symmetrical bass sources over a broad designated area is described in great detail in the 1st article listed below.  Earl recommends asymmetrical placement. The advantage or difference? Only three subs are needed and you don't need to place the subwoofers at specified locations. Nonetheless there are some basic rules that have proven to yield ideal results:

Put one sub in a corner close to the mains. The second sub is a lot more flexible as to its location, but it should not be in a corner. Side wall or back wall, near the midpoint is a good idea. Put the third sub wherever you can that is not too close to the other two. It's a good idea to get one of them off of the floor. If you want to get real stingy, Earl recommends getting that sub more than 1/2 way between the floor and ceiling, although this isn't possible in all locations.

If you want to go forward with this you'll need to purchase a reasonable accurate and calibrated microphone (like a Cross Spectrum labs Behringer ECM-8000), micpreamp, boom mic stand, etc...and have a thorough read of the 2nd article, which goes through the calibration and setup procedure in detail.

Hope that helps 

Anand.

P.S. I should give credit where its due...without the tutelage of Earl Geddes, Duke LeJeune, Todd Welti or Floyd O'Toole, none of this would've made any sense to me...

Articles

Todd Welti/Floyd Toole's/Devantier's Symmetric subwoofer placement

Markus Mehlau's calibration procedure for triple asymmetrical subwoofer placement per Earl Geddes

A more simply worded article on the use of symmetrical subwoofer placement by Todd Welti

fredgarvin

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Re: One vs Multiple Subs and why?
« Reply #13 on: 26 May 2012, 07:53 pm »
Here's a good resource: http://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/

Thanks Cujo, that's a helpful site.

medium jim

Re: One vs Multiple Subs and why?
« Reply #14 on: 26 May 2012, 09:05 pm »
Here's a article from Sound on Sound that may be pertinent:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr07/articles/subwoofers.htm

I'm thinking this might be a thread worthy of Sticky Status, what do you guys think?

Jim

P.S. The more I delve into Bass, the more I realize how little I know, how lucky I was, or that I have forgiving hearing. 

simon wagstaff

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Re: One vs Multiple Subs and why?
« Reply #15 on: 26 May 2012, 09:18 pm »
I have a pair of VMPS smaller subs with an audio control richter scale along with XT32 room processing. I think two subs make a huge difference. Even when crossed over at 80 hz when there is a strong signal I still say I can localize the sub. Using a pair evens out the response across the stereo soundfield and also gives twice the output, which admittedly is 3db, quite significant.

poseidonsvoice

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Re: One vs Multiple Subs and why?
« Reply #16 on: 27 May 2012, 07:57 pm »
Here's a article from Sound on Sound that may be pertinent:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr07/articles/subwoofers.htm

I'm thinking this might be a thread worthy of Sticky Status, what do you guys think?


Jim

P.S. The more I delve into Bass, the more I realize how little I know, how lucky I was, or that I have forgiving hearing.


 :o

I hate to say this Jim, but the article you referenced is now 5 years old and fraught full of misconceptions and poorly explained rationalizations. It makes one more confused and will provide mediocre performance, IMHO. I have had an audio system in a small room before, even a near cube with an 8 foot ceiling and honestly, using more subs linearized the response even more. It is not about output, it is about clean bass, and dealing with modal issues that are prevalent in ALL rooms. Some more than others.

Localizing a single sub is easy. Once you go multiple, then it is impossible, if you know what you are doing. The links I referenced in my contribution above, will help tremendously, but you have to go through the motions. It isn't easy. But once you have done it the first time, it's like riding a bike, a eureka moment and very repeatable.

Best,

Anand.

medium jim

Re: One vs Multiple Subs and why?
« Reply #17 on: 27 May 2012, 09:12 pm »
Anand:

Even though the article is nearly 5 years old, I found it timely and well reasoned for the most part. But I don't have the expertise you do.

It is obvious that I disagree with the principle that bass 80hz and below is omnidirectional as stated in the article. I do agree that room prep is very important and should be on the top of the list. Point, there is good to be gleaned from the article even if there is disagreement in many of the premises.

Having a small room and using 2 subs I can honestly tell you that will never go back to only one. 

All this proves is that there is more ways to muck it up that the ways to get it right.

With all of that, I hope someone will step up to the plate and start a thread on prepping a listening room for subs/bass.  I would be greatly appreciative.

Jim
« Last Edit: 28 May 2012, 02:53 am by medium jim »

eclein

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Re: One vs Multiple Subs and why?
« Reply #18 on: 28 May 2012, 12:05 pm »
Thanks a ton guys....I'm a man with a plan now...watch out...heheheheheh!!!! :thumb:

simon wagstaff

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Re: One vs Multiple Subs and why?
« Reply #19 on: 28 May 2012, 12:15 pm »
I think the concept of prepping a room for bass is outmoded. XT32 room correction provides for 2 subs and does an amazing job. if you don't do the home theater processor thing there are now outboard processors that only digitize the frequencies going to the subs. 30 seconds of beeps can replace hours of putting in room treatments and moving things around. I just have my two subs in the front corners and let the processor do the rest.

It is about clean output that contributes to the foundation of that bubble of sound coming from the front walls.