[doug s.]

Thanks so much for your help
Great suggestions
 last questions
Does it make sense to replace electrolytics based solely on the age the tuner sonics withstanding (the tuner works and sounds good)

What is the difference between fixed and variable setting which should I be plugging into

many folks have experienced better sound w/replacing aged electrolytes; after all, this tuna is now pushing 40 years old...  if you decide to have this done, tho, replacing filters and op-amps will yield further tangible benefits.  and a good tech w/schematics will be able to upgrade caps in the signal path to bigger and/or better, to improve things even more.

on paper, fixed output will give better performance, as the wariable out routes the signal thru additional wiring and the tuna's additional wolume pot.  in practice, i have found many wairable outs to be perfectly transparent when they're in the "max" position, as that is basically bypassing them.  and, it can be conwenient to control the tuna's wolume w/its own pot.  if you are having the tuna upgraded, you can always have the wiring in the wariable circuit upgraded as well.  i had this done when i had my sony st-a6b upgraded.  i guess you could go nuts and have the pot upgraded as well; i have never done that...

doug s.

[Wayner]

On the other hand, great techs like Mike Zuccaro think that replacing caps just for the hell of it is a great waste of time. IOW, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I've heard this story time and time again here at the AC and other places, and the fact is, most of the tinkering will result in a lesser performing component.

Mike, BTW is a Macintosh approved tech in the San Diego area, and is highly regarded. In fact, I dare say replacing caps in vintage equipment is one of his pet peeves.

I certainly enjoy my mint and very original Marants 115B tuner. It has stability, has a great ability to capture distant stations and sounds very musical.




The even funner thing is they look cool too and you don't have to stick another penny into them.

Wayner

[doug s.]

On the other hand, great techs like Mike Zuccaro think that replacing caps just for the hell of it is a great waste of time. IOW, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I've heard this story time and time again here at the AC and other places, and the fact is, most of the tinkering will result in a lesser performing component.

Mike, BTW is a Macintosh approved tech in the San Diego area, and is highly regarded. In fact, I dare say replacing caps in vintage equipment is one of his pet peeves.

I certainly enjoy my mint and very original Marants 115B tuner. It has stability, has a great ability to capture distant stations and sounds very musical.




The even funner thing is they look cool too and you don't have to stick another penny into them.

Wayner

mike is a great tech, but i would never send anything to him.  because he is completely mistaken regarding replacing 40 year old 'lytics and installing upgraded caps and other parts.  my rht-10 was sounding mighty fine, w/good reception before i had it worked on.  little did i know how good it could really sound, and how good its reception really was.  i found out when i got it back.     way too many folks have had this exact experience w/their tunas.  the fact is that having a tuna worked on by a qualified tech will only improve it, unless it is in perfect 100% shape to begin with.  and even then, mods will help, if the tech knows what he's doing.  (don't, btw, ever send anything to don scott - he's a hack and is absolutely clueless when it comes to knowing about how to properly refurb a tuna - i have known of many tunas sent to real techs to undo some of his travesties.)

wayner, your 115 will absolutely sound better if you have it refurb'd and modded by a competent tech.  ABSOLUTELY.

ymm not v

doug s.

[munosmario]

mike is a great tech, but i would never send anything to him.  because he is completely mistaken regarding replacing 40 year old 'lytics and installing upgraded caps and other parts.  my rht-10 was sounding mighty fine, w/good reception before i had it worked on.  little did i know how good it could really sound, and how good its reception really was.  i found out when i got it back.     way too many folks have had this exact experience w/their tunas.  the fact is that having a tuna worked on by a qualified tech will only improve it, unless it is in perfect 100% shape to begin with.  and even then, mods will help, if the tech knows what he's doing.  (don't, btw, ever send anything to don scott - he's a hack and is absolutely clueless when it comes to knowing about how to properly refurb a tuna - i have known of many tunas sent to real techs to undo some of his travesties.)

wayner, your 115 will absolutely sound better if you have it refurb'd and modded by a competent tech.  ABSOLUTELY.

ymm not v

doug s.

Name(s)  and contact info  of competent tech(s), please....any in NY City/ Boston proximity?

Thanks,

Munosmario

[doug s.]

Name(s)  and contact info  of competent tech(s), please....any in NY City/ Boston proximity?

Thanks,

Munosmario

ken bernacky is in connecticut; while i have never used him, many satisfied folks over on the yahoo tuna forum have used him:

http://www.stereosurgeons.com/

here's a list of others, a couple close to you (ken is also listed here):

http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/index.html#repairs

also, give romy the cat a holler - he is big time into fm, w/a sansui tu-x1 and a rhode & schwarz ballempfanger receiver and matching mpx decoder.  he lives in boston, and may know someone worth checking out.  (he is also into audio seriously big time; he is wery opinionated, and he has lotsa wery expensive gear.  he insists live broadcast on fm will surpass any other source for realism.  he is also a total trip; his way of distorting the english language is really off-putting, or a hoot, depending on your perspective.  but, he is really into fm, and if you query him, he should have some info.  tho he may tell you to throw your worthless tuna into the garbage.   

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/

(fm page):
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowForum.aspx?ForumID=36

hth,

doug s.

[Wayner]

I doubt it. It sounds great already, and there is no need to spend untold amounts of money (and time) to attempt to improve on something that is in working order.

Mike certainly is not a hack. He has brains and knows what ventures are worth while, and which ones aren't.

Here is Mikes website: http://audiocraftsman.com/

Wayner

[munosmario]

ken bernacky is in connecticut; while i have never used him, many satisfied folks over on the yahoo tuna forum have used him:

http://www.stereosurgeons.com/

here's a list of others, a couple close to you (ken is also listed here):

http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/index.html#repairs

also, give romy the cat a holler - he is big time into fm, w/a sansui tu-x1 and a rhode & schwarz ballempfanger receiver and matching mpx decoder.  he lives in boston, and may know someone worth checking out.  (he is also into audio seriously big time; he is wery opinionated, and he has lotsa wery expensive gear.  he insists live broadcast on fm will surpass any other source for realism.  he is also a total trip; his way of distorting the english language is really off-putting, or a hoot, depending on your perspective.  but, he is really into fm, and if you query him, he should have some info.  tho he may tell you to throw your worthless tuna into the garbage.   

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/

(fm page):
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowForum.aspx?ForumID=36

hth,

doug s.

doug s., most appreciated, ken at stereosurgeons, in Conn., seems just perfect.

mario

[RileyD]

Minn Mark,

About 15 years ago I subjectively reviewed the DX capabilities and sound quality of a bunch of tuners – 8 tuners in 8 days as I recall!

Maybe some of this will help you select a vintage tuner.  Here is the list of tuners that I evaluated, along with my objectives, and finally the results.

Audio By Van Alstine Transcendance (in a Dynaco FM-6 Chassis)
Audiolab T8000
Dynaco FM3
McIntosh MR77
McIntosh MR 78 (with Richard Modafferi mod)
NAD 4150 (with the touted Schotz circuit that automatically adjusted bandwidth)
Onkyo T-9090II
Tandberg 3011A (serviced by Peter at Soundsmith)
Technics ST-G3

Music was an important part of my early homelife.  From the late sixties until about ten years ago, FM radio was my primary source of musical exploration.  In the nineties I binged on live roots music.  I would tape shows in local clubs and then trade my shows with other tapers.  Trading the tapes allowed me to grow my collection and listen to a ton of live performances, but sound quality of these tapes varied, and only rarely were as good as live via FM radio.  I started recording FM programs such as Mountain Stage, A Prarie Home Companion, ETown etc.  So, I ended up looking for the best tuner that I could afford in order to record live music.

At the time I lived in the far west suburbs of Chicago in DuPage County.  I listened primarily WDCB in GlenEllyn whose tower was just ten miles away.  I also tuned to WBEZ and WXRT both about 30 miles away in Chicago.  So, long range reception of weak signals was not required.  My goal was to get a tuner that would give me the best sound quality for the stations I frequented in my rather typical major market suburban environment.

I used a chimney mounted Magnum Dynalab ST2 antenna.  It’s an omni-directional half wave antenna that is basically a steel whip on a coil.  I had collected the bunch of tuners over the years; some new, some used.  Where I thought service or updates would be justified I had the tuners serviced.

During a week of vacation I took the time to subjectively test and listen to each tuner, and document my experiences.  I noted the number of stations cleanly received and how well they dealt with weak or difficult signals.  Just a few miles away was North Central College’s station which tended to “light up” the band around its broadcast frequency.  Most of the listening was with the three stations mentioned above.  After spending about an hour or so with each tuner, it was easy to make the first cut.

Here are my recollections from the survey.  The FM3 was noisy, with bloated and tooby sound.  Reception with the NAD was good in some parts of the band, weak on others – it may have needed servicing.  The AVA / Dynaco FM6 front end was weak when compared to the other tuners.  On the strong WDCB signal it sounded dynamic and fast, but I passed on it for the poor DX capability.  The Tandberg did well on the DX side, but the sound quality was just average – I was hoping for better.  The Technics did surprisingly good on the DX tests, but the sound quality was a bit edgy by comparison.  The MR-77 was also set aside after the first round.  It performed well and was fun to operate, but I had the MR78 and it was clearly better in DXing and slightly better in sound quality.

So, after day one I spent the rest of the week going back and forth with the Audiolab, Onkyo, and MR-78.   

In the DX tests the Onkyo was the clear winner.  I remember referring to it as the rocket ship of the bunch.  It picked up more stations, handled the weak or difficult adjacent stations better, and had far more adjustability than the McIntosh or Audiolab.  It even had a remote!  Ultimately, in terms of sound quality it was less listenable over long periods than the McIntosh or the Audiolab, and so I set it aside.

In the subjective DXing tests the MR-78 was second to the Onkyo, and was very fun to operate.  I loved the feel of that heavy flywheel, the blue illumination and the look of the meters.  It sounded well balanced, full range and natural.  It dealt well with the highly compressed mainstream stations that sometimes seemed like they were screaming at me.

The Audiolab T8000 edged out the McIntosh with the best sound quality of the bunch, especially on the stations that I tended to listen to.  The quality of the broadcasted source material was evident on this tuner.  Well recorded music broadcast by a quality station was really rewarding with the Audiolab.  It’s DXing ability was excellent and simple to operate.  The Audiolab T8000 won my shootout because in my location, with my setup, the stations that I tended to listen to, and the programs that were broadcast it gave me the best results for my live performance recordings.

I should also explain that getting my money back out of this test was a factor in deciding to keep the Audiolab over the McIntosh MR78.  As I recall, I bought the Onkyo for about $350, and sold it for about the same.  The MR77 came from Bob at Hawthorn Stereo in Seattle (one of just a few dealers I’ve come to trust), and I think I traded it back to him.  I had invested maybe $600 in the Tandberg after servicing, and sold it for maybe $450.  I knew the Modafferi modified MR-78 would go for big bucks, and I eventually sold it (and the perfect walnut cabinet) for $1,500. 

I paid $500 for the used Audiolab and continued to use it as a source of many hundreds of listening and recording hours.

Good luck with your search,
Riley

[doug s.]

riley, i always find it interesting to read about other's experiences w/tunas.  and, of course, i always try to determine what the results will be, before reading them, based on my own experiences.     i must say, w/the exception of your experience w/the mr78, the rest pretty-much mirror my experiences.  a couple i have not heard, but i have read comments from others, and/or owned a similar model.  i agree the 8000t would be far and away the best tuna in that bunch, imo.  stellar sonics and good-enough reception.

regarding the mr78, well what can i say - even richard modafferi has said a properly working mr77 should outperform an mr78 for sonics, w/the 78 having better reception.  and, my experience was, that after a complete refurb and alignment of my 77 w/a mac-authorized tech w/35 years experience, it was easily one of the worst sounding tunas of about 100 that i have owned over the last 20 years.  so it is surprising to me that anyone would think an mr78 would be even remotely close to an audiolab 8000t sonically.  but, as you discovered, you can buy and sell wintage tuna w/o losing much, if any, money, and decide for yourself.   

regarding antannae, i (and almost everyone else i know), have gotten better results w/a simple cheap 300 ohm dipole antenna than those whip antennae such as the m-d st-2's.  i tried one on the roof of a 2-story house, and got much better results w/a wire dipole mounted on the wall at the ceiling on the first floor...

doug s.

[macrojack]

Doug is advising how to get the most bang for your buck. That sometimes requires an investment. And it is a fact that tuners need to be re-aligned sometimes, just like the wheels on your car. Unfortunately, tuners don't display erratic tire wear to tell you it is necessary.

If a party is in pursuit of maximum performance from a used tuner, the best assurance of that is having it checked and recalibrated by a respected technician.

A possible corollary is buying a used car and being unsure when the timing belt was last changed. You know when it is supposed to be done. There is a mileage cycle by which you can be pretty confidant. However, if you have no idea when it was last done, you can recalibrate your maintenance cycle by changing it now. That way you know that you are not tempting fate.

Doug also counseled the OP not to waste his money on a whip antenna.

When you buy that used tuner, you choose it to some extent on its performance reputation. Naturally you would want to be sure it is performing at the level you sought when choosing it.

[Speedskater]

Doug is advising how to get the most bang for your buck. That sometimes requires an investment.
(snip)

Those are contradictory statements.

[Speedskater]

For everything you need to know about FM antennas and lots of other FM technical stuff see:

http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/index.html

For even more on FM antenna products see:

http://www.dtvusaforum.com/dtv-hdtv-reception-antenna-discussion/4396-evs-best-top-rated-fm-hd-radio-antenna-guide-reviews.html

[doug s.]

Doug is advising how to get the most bang for your buck. That sometimes requires an investment.
(snip)

Those are contradictory statements.

no they are not contradictory statements.  not even a little.  getting bang for your buck means you have to be willing to at least spend a buck.  want bang for your buck?  don't buy my sansui tu-x1...   

doug s.

[doug s.]

ok, here are a few questions for you, wayner.  (and for anyone else):

do you have a station that has decent uncompressed signal and decent programming?  (it is wirtually certain that it is not a commercial station, tho it does not have to be an npr station, either.)  do you ever plant yourself in the "sweet spot" of your main system, to listen to fm?  does it sound as good as your $$$ winyl and/or digital front end?  would you listen to fm as a critical listening source, if it could sound as good as your other front ends?  do you believe there is no way fm can sound as good as your other sources?

well, fm can sound as good as your other front end sources.  perhaps some of the skepticism coming from you, wayner, (and from others?), is that there is the belief that fm cannot be taken seriously as a quality listening source.  well it is.  and, while you can spend thousands - if you wish - you do not have to.  prudent shopping - to include alignment, refurb and mods - will have you experiencing this easily for under $1000; and almost as easily for <$500.  in some cases a lot less.  i lucked out and got an aligned, refurb'd sherwood s3000v w/minor mods for ~$130 shipping included.  the sonics are absolutely stellar - a good program will have you glued to the sweet spot...   

if you use fm only as background music, then don't bother looking for better sound; in this case, i agree - why bother?  i'd say the same thing if you used any other of your sources or systems solely for background music - no need for seeking out the best possible sound quality.

ymmv,

doug s.

[macrojack]

The prudent do not participate in matters about which they do not give a crap.

To me it is plain that Doug knows far more about tuners and it is obvious to me that he offered nothing but constructive input. Can't see why that would bother anyone.

The tuna thing is silly.

[S Clark]

Outside of the bickering, this has been a good thread.  Know any good tuner techs in or near Texas?  One of these days, a Sherwood will come my way from ebay, and the plan is to have it brought up to speed.

Scott

[doug s.]

Outside of the bickering, this has been a good thread.  Know any good tuner techs in or near Texas?  One of these days, a Sherwood will come my way from ebay, and the plan is to have it brought up to speed.

Scott

check your pm, scott; i don't wanna disturb the neanderthals...   

doug s.

[MaxCast]

Where did this thread come from? 

Thread cleaned a bit but please carry on.

[martyo]

Where did this thread come from? 

the Vintage Circle.

[MaxCast]

thanks martyo