Tone Controls - Science or Religion?

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DaveNote

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Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« on: 24 Apr 2012, 02:30 pm »
I've been reading a number of comments on various forums about the use of tone controls. Opinions vary greatly, tending to reveal a belief system more than anything else.

Going back decades, I was taught as a young audiophile that using tone controls was an audiophile sin. So I don't use them in my sound room. But given that most recorded music is equalized and otherwise manipulated in production, and that the whole point of having a good system is to get the sound one wants, it seems silly not to use tone controls if they work for you.

What I haven't found is a technical reason, as opposed to a "preference," for not using tone controls.

I'm interested in what members of this circle have to say about the technical reasons for using or not using tone controls.

Dave

spinner

Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #1 on: 24 Apr 2012, 02:45 pm »
 If you really want tone adjustment a multiband equalizer of high quality would offer good results. With this is the tape loop you could still by pass it when desired. :thumb:

DaveNote

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Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #2 on: 24 Apr 2012, 03:12 pm »
If you really want tone adjustment a multiband equalizer of high quality would offer good results. With this is the tape loop you could still by pass it when desired. :thumb:

Thanks, Spinner. In fact, I have a very high quality digitial equalizer (Z-Systems) that I bought years ago that I now don't use, but my hope is to find out why, technically, I should or shouldn't use tone controls.

Dave

tdinut

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Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #3 on: 24 Apr 2012, 03:33 pm »
Hi Dave,
I grew up with the same philosophy about tone controls. If they can be fully bypassed, then why not. Try it, and if you like it, great. I think now it's about enjoyment not absolutes. I had a McIntosh C2300 with tone controls and they came in very handy on some recordings and speakers. They were bypassed when not needed and worked great when needed.

Elizabeth

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Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #4 on: 24 Apr 2012, 03:36 pm »
The MAIN REASON not to use tone controls is so you have to spend tens of thousands on cables to 'adjust' the tone of your system, instead of just moving a little knob.  :peek:

And I own, but do not use to adjust the 'tone' A Behringer DEQ2496. Which has all sorts of digital means to adjust the signal.

tdinut

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Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #5 on: 24 Apr 2012, 04:26 pm »
The MAIN REASON not to use tone controls is so you have to spend tens of thousands on cables to 'adjust' the tone of your system, instead of just moving a little knob.  :peek:

And I own, but do not use to adjust the 'tone' A Behringer DEQ2496. Which has all sorts of digital means to adjust the signal.
:icon_lol:
 :thumb:

thunderbrick

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Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #6 on: 24 Apr 2012, 04:35 pm »
It's your stuff.  Do what you want. 

Worried about what the other boys say?

When your audiophile buddies come over, remove the tone control knobs and put 'em back on in the 12 o'clock position.  In the eyes of your buddies you are a non-sinner.

Simple!

:icon_twisted:

Devil Doc

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Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #7 on: 24 Apr 2012, 04:40 pm »
I neither have tone controls or audiophile friends. Who needs 'em. I have a lot less agita.

Doc.

JfTM

Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #8 on: 24 Apr 2012, 04:59 pm »
The MAIN REASON not to use tone controls is so you have to spend tens of thousands on cables to 'adjust' the tone of your system, instead of just moving a little knob.  :peek:

And I own, but do not use to adjust the 'tone' A Behringer DEQ2496. Which has all sorts of digital means to adjust the signal.

+1   :thumb:

tim92gts

Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #9 on: 24 Apr 2012, 05:34 pm »
I've got them as part of the DSP in the preamp, there are about 30 available curves and i guess i regularly use 3 or 4. Mainly used to allow for slight differences  between the cdp, tt and server.
i suppose the cdp is virtually flat as i'm set and often the vinyl plays a bit dead ( some of it's over 40 years old) although the recordings do vary a lot.
It can be useful when partner struggles to hear voices on film too, a slight roll off of bass helps her for some reason.
The server is about 50m away in another building so i'm not going to upgrade my CAT5e!
Tim

vegasdave

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Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #10 on: 24 Apr 2012, 05:44 pm »
Is this a good eq? Looks good to me!

http://www.klarkteknik.com/dn360.php

werd

Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #11 on: 24 Apr 2012, 05:50 pm »
Tone controls don't make cymbals sound better or bass guitars or any instruments sound better. All they do is mask faulty frequencies that your amp can't drive with a new and improved self-set frequencies that your amp has an easier time driving. They also add distortion. Just get gear that does not need tone controls to resolve your soundstage.  Also get into the habbit of listening to individual instruments and not the entire soundstage as awhole. Once you do this you hear how much tone controls lose instrument detail. They kinda suck but i don't mind them on some gear.

JfTM

Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #12 on: 24 Apr 2012, 06:39 pm »
Tone controls don't make cymbals sound better or bass guitars or any instruments sound better. All they do is mask faulty frequencies that your amp can't drive with a new and improved self-set frequencies that your amp has an easier time driving. They also add distortion. Just get gear that does not need tone controls to resolve your soundstage.  Also get into the habbit of listening to individual instruments and not the entire soundstage as awhole. Once you do this you hear how much tone controls lose instrument detail. They kinda suck but i don't mind them on some gear.

Not many mixing consoles out there without EQ (aka tone controls).  I imagine they use them.

milford3

Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #13 on: 24 Apr 2012, 06:57 pm »
My AVR has "Tone-in, Tone-out."  I reEQ every song that I play. 

spinner

Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #14 on: 24 Apr 2012, 07:13 pm »
 Yes Vegasdave, that looks like a serious eq unit. I think dbX, or some name like that, was (is) a very good make as well.  :thumb:
« Last Edit: 25 Apr 2012, 01:50 am by spinner »

werd

Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #15 on: 24 Apr 2012, 07:41 pm »
Not many mixing consoles out there without EQ (aka tone controls).  I imagine they use them.

You are talking about EQs off a mixing board. Entirely different than tone controls on an integrated. It's also different than those using an eq to flatten a measured room for playback. If you are going to use an EQ to do this you have to decide whether or not the distortion added by the EQ outweighs the EQ.d room response.

Devil Doc

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Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #16 on: 24 Apr 2012, 07:49 pm »
Using tone controls is like wearing tinted glasses to an art museum.

Doc

werd

Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #17 on: 24 Apr 2012, 08:01 pm »
Using tone controls is like wearing tinted glasses to an art museum.

Doc

 :lol: yes

There is nothing wrong with using them, but as you move more into the realm of refinement it just becomes more and more obvious you have to drop the gear with tone controls.

BobRex

Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #18 on: 24 Apr 2012, 08:33 pm »
Going back decades, I was taught as a young audiophile that using tone controls was an audiophile sin. So I don't use them in my sound room. But given that most recorded music is equalized and otherwise manipulated in production, and that the whole point of having a good system is to get the sound one wants, it seems silly not to use tone controls if they work for you.

For many, the whole point of having a good system is to hear everything that was recorded in its proper context and as the engineer / producer / artist wanted.  The idea that you buy a good system to get the sound you want may lead to troubles.  For instance, if all you "want" is to dance and hear the beat, well, then you don't need to worry about soundstaging and delicacy, do you?

If  "the sound one wants" is a valid interpretation of the above, and recognizing that within the context of cost limitations, preferences, and room limitations, then there is no need to "flavor", and EQ can be used to mitigate room issues, with varying degrees of success.  (Which, BTW, was the reason your Z Systems unit was built.) But, recognize that, over the years, most EQ users have been heavy handed with the controls, thinking that mo bass, mo highs is better bass and better highs - "listen to how clear that cymbal is!" and were totally oblivious to the screeching violins and guitars having more than just the high E string.  If that's what you want, fine, it's your system, but don't call it high fidelity.

Also keep in mind that the greater the tone adjustment, the less difference you will hear betweeen recordings.  Since recording differences are one of high fidelity's "Holy Grails", you will throw the baby out with the bath water - so to speak.

Ask yourself this....Why haven't you used your current EQ anymore?  Or, more to the point, why did you buy it and then not use it?

redbook

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Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #19 on: 25 Apr 2012, 02:01 am »
  Since I have moved up the quality ladder in terms of equipment the need for tone adjustment has never been missed. I found that proper room treatments and speaker placements to be more important factors . My personal bottom line is to hear the recording as it was made, good or bad.....IMO  :dance: