Tone Controls - Science or Religion?

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 10164 times.

Russtafarian

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1118
  • Typical reaction to the music I play
Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #20 on: 25 Apr 2012, 04:12 am »
I think the one piece of gear every audiophile needs but none will buy is a high quality parametric EQ.  When trained how to use it, it can really open up the music.  When not needed, just bypass it.

Quote
My personal bottom line is to hear the recording as it was made, good or bad.....IMO 

I hear this a lot and I understand where you're coming from.  I also know that many recordings get mixed and mastered in ways that compromise the music.  The judicious use of EQ can help reshape the recording into a more musical experience.  It does take effort to learn the tool and trust your ears, but the results are worth it.

Russ

vegasdave

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 4039
    • My online rock magazine-Crypt Magazine
Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #21 on: 25 Apr 2012, 05:15 am »
Yes Vegasdave, that looks like a serious eq unit. I think dbX, or some name like that, was (is) a very good make as well.  :thumb:

Thanks! I might get one of these down the road.

vegasdave

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 4039
    • My online rock magazine-Crypt Magazine
Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #22 on: 25 Apr 2012, 05:15 am »
I think the one piece of gear every audiophile needs but none will buy is a high quality parametric EQ.  When trained how to use it, it can really open up the music.  When not needed, just bypass it.

I hear this a lot and I understand where you're coming from.  I also know that many recordings get mixed and mastered in ways that compromise the music.  The judicious use of EQ can help reshape the recording into a more musical experience.  It does take effort to learn the tool and trust your ears, but the results are worth it.

Russ


Good point.

ricmon

Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #23 on: 25 Apr 2012, 05:38 am »
If you want a "technical" explanation i suggest you go over to the AVA circle and ask Frank.  He can probably best answer your question.

good luck
Ric

Rclark

Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #24 on: 25 Apr 2012, 05:48 am »
I think the one piece of gear every audiophile needs but none will buy is a high quality parametric EQ.  When trained how to use it, it can really open up the music.  When not needed, just bypass it.

Russ

 Can you elaborate on that? Is this in conjunction with passive crossovers?

JohnR

Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #25 on: 25 Apr 2012, 07:54 am »
What I haven't found is a technical reason, as opposed to a "preference," for not using tone controls.

I'm not sure that your question was answered, so I'll take a stab. A "tone control" (in a traditional sense e.g. Baxandall network) is an adjustment of the frequency response of the system aka EQ at a very coarse level. There are good reasons for adjusting frequency response, in descending (in my opinion) order of importance:

1. Correcting frequency response of loudspeaker drivers and cabinet. Any speaker with a "passive" crossover has this built into it, to some degree.
2. Correcting aberrations caused by the room aka "room correction." This is a complex and contentious topic but even when acoustical treatment has tamed the time domain behaviour there are still likely to be issues below the Schroeder frequency that are most likely to be best/most cost-effectively addressed with EQ.
3. Applying a "room curve" or "target curve" overall especially in the bass region - see  Figure 1 in http://www.hifizine.com/2011/06/bass-integration-guide-part-1/
4. Personal preference. I've found that once you take care of 1-3, that's pretty much it.

The traditional tone control meets none of 1-3, and only meets #4 if the change it makes happens to be what you want. The parametric EQ mentioned above is the second-best way to do 1-3, and probably the best way to do #4.

DaveNote

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 615
  • Without music, life would be a mistake. Nietzsche
Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #26 on: 25 Apr 2012, 03:43 pm »
Thanks for your comments, all of which are helpful. For me BobRex and JohnR have forcefully reminded me of my own experience.

Why did I buy a Z-Systems RDQ digital equalizer? Partly to try to use it as a preamp, but most of all to "correct" a bad room. It didn't do much to help. Why did I stop using it? Ended up with a better room, and ultimately better equipment, none of which has any form of tone control. Which substantiates my long-held belief about tone controls being bad. But this thread has helped me to drop the vague and illogical - basically silly - notion that using them is an audiophile sin.  You've helped me to reflect on and clarify what I've learned over these years, which is that in using tone controls, which is perfectly OK to do, you have to live with the fact that your gear and/or room or speaker placement are problems that tone controls cannot fix.

Dave


redbook

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1237
  • the music is the blood...........
Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #27 on: 25 Apr 2012, 03:48 pm »
   Well said.... :D

Russtafarian

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1118
  • Typical reaction to the music I play
Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #28 on: 25 Apr 2012, 03:53 pm »
To JohnR's list I would add:

5. Correct tonal issues in a recording. 

This is where a parametric really works well. 

Here's a common example.  Most pop recordings are mixed/mastered with a presence boost in the range between 4 and 8 khz.  This allows the recording to punch through a car stereo radio, ipod ear buds, computer speakers, etc.  Play it on a relatively neutral stereo system and it just screams at the listener.  Engage a 6 db parametric cut with a medium Q around 6 khz restores a more natural balance to the recording making it much more enjoyable to listen to.

What's cool is you can "sweep" the frequency control up or down while listening to find the right center frequency for the filter.  With a little practice this is fun and easy to do.  It also tells you about your system and or hearing preferences.  If you are consistently cutting or boosting the same frequency with every recording, that's a system issue not a recording issue.  You can then use other means to fix it (acoustic treatment, system tuning etc.).

Phil A

Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #29 on: 25 Apr 2012, 04:07 pm »
Can you elaborate on that? Is this in conjunction with passive crossovers?

With a parametric you can focus on a specific frequency and the length of the applied filter in octaves (so it does not impact other frequencies).  I owned one many moons ago (probably about 30 years back).  In the old days, when tape was a source, you could have issues with hiss.  Normal tone controls and graphic equalizers would result in getting rid of hiss and also some of the music too.

vegasdave

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 4039
    • My online rock magazine-Crypt Magazine
Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #30 on: 29 Apr 2012, 08:32 pm »

Mag

Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #31 on: 10 Apr 2018, 03:53 am »
I use tone controls in the form of my Yamaha MG-10 mixer. :oops:

I usually have the treble set to +2 but for some music +1 reduces the hard edge on some hard rock guitar, Mids +2, bass +3.

 Now with the bass I had it at +2, but I find +3 to be a better foundation to how the midrange sounds. In other words having the correct bass level influences how other instruments sound such as piano, etc.. I'm talking clean bass, not bloated or what sounds like weighted unbalanced bass. Though the bass is quite heavy sounding. No flat sounding neutral bass here!

The use of gain control is just as critical. I have it set two notches above what in considered normal level setting. I use to have it set much higher, but found overtime music sounded better by sacrificing some detail for a much smoother less digital presentation.

Line-in kinda works like gain, set too low I loose detail, too high and the meters clip. So I have that set to just below clipping lever for maximum detail. :smoke:


JLM

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 10745
  • The elephant normally IS the room
Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #32 on: 10 Apr 2018, 10:13 am »
For many, the whole point of having a good system is to hear everything that was recorded in its proper context and as the engineer / producer / artist wanted.  The idea that you buy a good system to get the sound you want may lead to troubles.  For instance, if all you "want" is to dance and hear the beat, well, then you don't need to worry about soundstaging and delicacy, do you?

If  "the sound one wants" is a valid interpretation of the above, and recognizing that within the context of cost limitations, preferences, and room limitations, then there is no need to "flavor", and EQ can be used to mitigate room issues, with varying degrees of success.  (Which, BTW, was the reason your Z Systems unit was built.) But, recognize that, over the years, most EQ users have been heavy handed with the controls, thinking that mo bass, mo highs is better bass and better highs - "listen to how clear that cymbal is!" and were totally oblivious to the screeching violins and guitars having more than just the high E string.  If that's what you want, fine, it's your system, but don't call it high fidelity.

Also keep in mind that the greater the tone adjustment, the less difference you will hear betweeen recordings.  Since recording differences are one of high fidelity's "Holy Grails", you will throw the baby out with the bath water - so to speak.

Ask yourself this....Why haven't you used your current EQ anymore?  Or, more to the point, why did you buy it and then not use it?

+1

High fidelity of a particular recording was best judged by the professionals in the studio/at the performance.  Is your system unable to keep up/lacking (almost always the room/speakers)?  Or do you want to flavor the sound "beyond" what's on the recording?  It's a slippery slope away from being an audiophile IMO when you start 'playing' with the sound for the sake of colorizing.

Tone controls are crude versions of EQ or DSP (especially computer based DSP).  Any of these can lead you down the rabbit hole of "Alice in Wonderland" fame and go from a science to a religion. 

Johnny2Bad

Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #33 on: 10 Apr 2018, 11:13 am »
I don't have any fundamental objections to "tone controls" in Audio Playback Systems. I also don't have any objection to purist systems that don't have them.

Now, Graphic Equalizers, that is a different kind of animal. Again, no fundamental objection, but being familiar with many of the kind, most simply don't sound that good from the start. Trust me, when you install one into a Mid-Fi nationally advertised system and you can hear whether it's in or out when set to 0dB correction ... that's not a quality audio product.

Of those that could be considered "neutral sounding", say, a Pro parametric or 31-band graphic ... well they aren't actually that neutral sounding. You can often tell whether they are in or out of the playback chain, even when set to no equalization.

The DSP-based units are better, but not better to the point where the effect is inaudible.

So ... what to do? Tone controls are there to mitigate the issues that arise when you take Speaker A and install in in Room A. Take the same speaker and install it in Room B and it will interact with the environment differently, and so there is your need and your solution.

Graphic and Parametric EQ are different than something like a Bass cut / boost knob. Essentially, again, I have no fundamental objection ... in other words as a concept I understand the attraction ... but as someone who spent many years configuring various systems for retail customers, I cringe at the idea.

The problem? Virtually in every case, the adjustments are just too tempting to ignore, and users just mess up the sonics when they put their hands to them. So, a system carefully assembled to provide a synergy (if you don't do this, you don't belong in retail or consulting audio) is then changed to a messy shadow of it's true potential.

Once you get to a certain point ... and it's not based on how much you spend, but on how well the system was configured ... you should be dealing with these issues without resorting to tone controls. If judicious use of tone controls are employed ... I have a fondness for frequency tilt controls like those found on QUAD preamps and Luxman's Linear Equalizer* ... no problem. But that is so rarely the case, and once you leave the home after setup, they are so often altered by the owner, that I can't really advocate their use.

Maybe I want too much control and I should just back off and let people do what they want with what they bought. But it's frustrating when a solid, excellent sounding system in a given environment is degraded by users. Sorry, I know that is somewhat elitist, but it's how I feel about it.

When it comes to just the LF region, say below 300 Hz, things are a little different. You can't just lengthen a room wall 15 feet when the need arises. But LF is also much easier to do circuit wise, so transparency and other sonic signatures of equalization are much more difficult to detect. Digital is almost perfect at LF ... that's not the end of the spectrum where digital has it's issues. But above that, I'm not convinced anything beyond subtle adjustments have any place in a domestic Sound System.

* These controls alter the spectral balance of a system in small but meaningful ways. For example the Luxman Linear Equalizer knob, which actuates a switch with usually 9 total positions in +/- 0.5dB steps, turned full counter-clockwise, would increase the LF and simultaneously reduce the HF, for perhaps a +2/-2dB adjustment. If you were to imagine the frequency response chart, it would have a down-tilt from 20 to 20KHz versus a flat line with the control out of the circuit.

If a difference of 4dB at 20 vs. 20KHz isn't enough, your system is clearly improperly matched, and the problems should be addressed elsewhere. In fact anything beyond about a total change of 2dB is probably in indication the system needs attention.


Johnny2Bad

Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #34 on: 10 Apr 2018, 11:45 am »
Not many mixing consoles out there without EQ (aka tone controls).  I imagine they use them.

Well, studio vocal microphones aren't "neutral" either (if you have a neutral mic, you put it somewhere else, or often back into the Mic Closet, muttering "why did we buy this thing?").

Engineers are well aware of the price paid via EQ. In practice, there's a whole lot of cutting, to mitigate a problem, and virtually no boosting. Do you need to hear that Bus rumbling down the street on your Drum Kit Cymbal mics? If you ever get a chance to view a console in action, most of those EQs are straight up, or out of the circuit (usually there is a switch below those knobs) unless called upon to fix a problem, or maybe to separate a lead from the other guitars by a few dB. That kind of thing.

That is not how owners use domestic EQ.

You think Frank Sinatra actually sounds that way?

Everything in a recording project, start to finish, is about creating a "sound", a whole greater than the sum of it's parts. How they get there is irrelevant as long as the final result meets that objective. Whether an Engineer uses EQ is about as relevant as whether the band used an old tire or a new one to bang on for that percussive sound. Not relevant to home reproduction of the finished work.

Once a recording product is finalized, it should stand on it's own, without tonal adjustments. My opinion, which apparently means "my religion" according to the Thread title.

mav52

Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #35 on: 10 Apr 2018, 12:43 pm »
What gets me is people that don't like tone controls have no problem using cables to change the sound, per their way of thinking. :)

CanadianMaestro

  • Restricted
  • Posts: 1760
  • Skepticism is the engine of progress
    • Hearing Everything That Nothing Can Measure
Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #36 on: 10 Apr 2018, 01:58 pm »
I've been reading a number of comments on various forums about the use of tone controls. Opinions vary greatly, tending to reveal a belief system more than anything else.
What I haven't found is a technical reason, as opposed to a "preference," for not using tone controls.

Who cares?

Some people like rock. Others jazz. Preferences, that's all. Throw tone controls into the same bag.
Technical reasons? Hogwash. Make some up. Compensating for poor hearing (loss of highs with ageing), etc etc.

Much ado about nothing. To each his own.
Next.

mav52

Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #37 on: 10 Apr 2018, 02:41 pm »
Who cares?

Some people like rock. Others jazz. Preferences, that's all. Throw tone controls into the same bag.
Technical reasons? Hogwash. Make some up. Compensating for poor hearing (loss of highs with ageing), etc etc.

Much ado about nothing. To each his own.
Next.

I agree.  I say use what makes the music sound good for you, not what someones thinks it should sound like for you. 


HsvHeelFan

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 452
Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #38 on: 11 Apr 2018, 12:11 am »
My Parasound pre has tone controls.  I never use them.  I keep them bypassed.

However, I have recently started fiddling with the EQ in JRiver.  Mainly boosting a frequency here or there by 1 to 1.5 db.   I've listened for years with the EQ in JRiver not enabled.  I still prefer flat.

HsvHeelFan

gbaby

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 927
Re: Tone Controls - Science or Religion?
« Reply #39 on: 12 Apr 2018, 12:31 am »
I cannot believe how this thread went from why one should not use tone controls to the benefits of a parametric equalizer and EQ in general. Wow, you folks really know how to stick to the subject. Anyway, the main reason not to use tone controls is that doing so interrupts the signal path which always compromises the sound. In fact, some really expensive pre-amps have no tone controls. So its science.