[roscoeiii]

Yeah, I will probably continue to use the syringe until I work up the guts to get out a Dremel.

Also, are there any audio forums that seem to have a good number of Rock owners? Don't see many Rock owners here and would love to find other tips like the excellent ones you are providing here.

[TheChairGuy]

Also, are there any audio forums that seem to have a good number of Rock owners? Don't see many Rock owners here and would love to find other tips like the excellent ones you are providing here.

Max Townshend has been real spotty over the past ~30 years of producing turntables.  I wouldn't be too surprised if less than 5000 pcs were ever produced of the various types.

So, finding a mass congregation of owners might be tough as its a pretty small amt ever produced.

Some of the satisfying vinyl sounds I had was with a Rock2 from 1987-88 (with Helius arm and modded Grado back then)

[roscoeiii]

Max Townshend has been real spotty over the past ~30 years of producing turntables.  I wouldn't be too surprised if less than 5000 pcs were ever produced of the various types.

Surprising considering the great reviews these tables get in the British and US press. TAS's Golden Ear, Positive Feedback Writers' Choice, HiFi Choice Awards. I'd have thought that would lead to some pretty good sales figures.

[steveblezy]

It is a shame. I guess it might be because people think that the trough gets in the way. In 8 years of daily use, I have never split a drop of fluid and moving the trough out of the way to change a record take an additional 1-2 seconds.

[roscoeiii]

OK, the Rock 7 impressions of the day. Back with the Fleet Foxes first album. And comparing it with the Well Tempered Amadeus at long last.

The bass again really shines on the Rock. Feels more emphasized on this compared to the WTA. The realism of the tympani on the second track of Side 1 is fabulous.

Not only does the bass really impress, but also the harmonics on the lower end of the spectrum. Lower male voices, bass strings. A real richness to strummed strings. I mean heartstring plucking richness here.

In sum, there is a real bass foundation here with the Rock.

But compared to the WTA, I think this becomes a tradeoff. The treble is a little more noticeable on the WTA. I also think the lesser bass emphasis makes the midrange a bit more prominent on the WTA. Less of the air and soaring extension on vocals in the Rock compared to the WTA. That stuff seems more extended and prominent on the WTA. More likely to notice the singer taking a breath on the WTA. Though when the soaring vocal stuff is happening in isolation from other lower register musical information on the Rock it does seem to have more of that sort of extension.

To sum up all of this, I' probably phrase it in terms of what is foregrounded (Townshend: lower register; WTA: the highs). I think Robert Greene at TAS was getting at something like this when he described the Rock as "bottom up" and the WTA as "top down" in his Rock 7 review.

OK, all of that is based on Side 1 of Fleet Foxes S/T.

Next post will be on Radiohead's Hail to the Thief Side 1.

[roscoeiii]

Addendum on the Fleet Foxes listening impressions:

The above was with no turntable mat. But I did get the Origin Live mat which Origin Live advertised as a Rock mat in an eBay listing.

Without the likely needed VTA adjustment that would be ideal with the thin mat in place, here are my thoughts on it vs no mat on the Fleet Foxes:

The main thing here is that it seems to give a bit more balance of the highs and lows. There is a bit more treble and air with the mat in place. The plot thickens.

BTW, speaking of mats, I should mention that the WTA is being played with an upgraded Auditorium mat (the one mat regarded as a consensus upgrade over the stock mat.

Also worth noting: I am using the WTA with a DPS power supply (which is also powering my Dynavector P75 phono stage, run in PE mode with a SoundSmith rebuilt Dynavector XX-2 Mk II cart).

[roscoeiii]

Well the Radiohead didn't reveal as many differences in the two turntables as the Fleet Foxes. Same general profiles remained, but the differences between the 2 options (Rock w/ no mat, Rock w/ mat and WTA) didn't feel as big for that music. Not sure why. This was a bit of a surprise, as that Radiohead album has been a good one for helping me evaluate different components in the past (especially the track Sit Down, Stand Up).

Now time for Electric Ladyland (the excellent sounding Legacy reissue).

[jshefik]

Great music choices , though I don't know the fleet foxes you speak of. Glad to hear the WTA kept up in the Bass department with the Rock on Hail. I took an Electric Lady Land (import issue I bought as a teenager in '79) to audition the Amadeus at Pitch Perfect Audio, here in the bay area. Played the jam from Still raining still Dreaming side and was floored how good that 32 year old piece of vinyl sounded. So natural.

I have made a few new addition to my system(the first in 7 years) new speakers(Usher Mini Dancer 2's) and my first stand alone phono pre-amp(Nova Phonomena) so the WTA will have to wait a bit, unfortunately. So glad I ran across it before I spent money on something else.

Thanks again for your impressions...

[sunnydaze]

Surprising considering the great reviews these tables get in the British and US press. TAS's Golden Ear, Positive Feedback Writers' Choice, HiFi Choice Awards. I'd have thought that would lead to some pretty good sales figures.

I have owned my Rock Mk3 since 1997.....oldest piece of gear in my rig, by far.  I have not come across many Rock owners.  It is fringey and apparently does not appeal to the masses and the sheeple who tend to gravitate to more "known" names that have more reviews......regardless of the fact that the Rock may be much better sonically.

And yes, the arm does matter.  The trough may render arm differences as more subtle than on a regular table, but it does not eliminate them.  Over the years I have had several good arms on my Rock 3, and could always hear differences.  I currently use the very excellent Kuzma Stogi Reference.  I am pretty happy with the combo and have no real desire to change.  If I did, I would probably change the table before the arm.....to a Rock 7!       

Enjoy the 7.  Based on how good the 3 is, I'm sure it's WOW    good!!     

[roscoeiii]

Great music choices , though I don't know the fleet foxes you speak of. 

I took an Electric Lady Land (import issue I bought as a teenager in '79) to audition the Amadeus at Pitch Perfect Audio, here in the bay area. So natural.

A few thoughts here:

1) Check out the Fleet Foxes. Like now. Really incredible harmonies, great acoustic stuff overall. I'd start with their self-titled album, but both are great. The first just has more emphasis on the vocal harmonies.

2) Yeah, I just got done playing side 1 of Electric Ladyland on the WTA. "So natural" describes it dead on. I know that these comments aren't good for your vinyl budget, but if you are fan of Electric Ladyland you might want to grab the Legacy reissue. Stunned by the sound quality. Very nicely done. Decided on it over an early pressing based on reviews on SH Forum.

[roscoeiii]

And yes, the arm does matter.  The trough may render arm differences as more subtle than on a regular table, but it does not eliminate them.  Over the years I have had several good arms on my Rock 3, and could always hear differences.  I currently use the very excellent Kuzma Stogi Reference.

Thanks for the heads-up on the arm sunnydaze. It has been nice with the Amadeus to not need to give any thoughts to tonearm upgrades. Think it is pretty likely that an audiomods arm is in my near future.

But wow, even with the RB301, this table is sounding great.

[roscoeiii]

Took a detour from Jimi to play some James Blake on the WTA before putting the cart back on the Rock 7. To plumb the depths.

Bass and treble on the WTA were excellent. Really great treble shimmer on the WTA. With great soundstaging. Some of the special percussion effects on the album just dance around.

On the Rock, no huge differences. Treble may not be quite as special as the WTA (touch less air and shimmer), but not shabby or what I'd go so far as to call a weakness. Bass once again is excellent. On this very bass-heavy album the Rock can really pressurize a room with bass.

OK, now it is time to go back to Electric Ladyland. Jazz coming folks. Stay tuned. 

[roscoeiii]

Should also mention that I am using a SoundSmith rebuilt Dynavector XX-2 MkII cart for this. And that since I am swapping it back and forth without getting out an alignment protractor the Rock is at a bit of a disadvantage. There are no headshell adjustments on the Amadeus. It is a fixed design with no wiggle room for cartridge positioning. On the Rock, I am putting the cart approximately where it was when I aligned the cart with a protractor. But I am eyeballing this, so am very likely off a bit.

[TheChairGuy]

roscoe,

Always wanted to hear a Well Tempered product.  Had the Amadeus been out the same time as the VPI Classic was, I' might've taken a stab out.

Bass on the Townshend Rock I had was stupendous.  It was rendered even more prominent as I had large transmission line speakers and a modded Grado (typically makes most other cartridges seem weak-kneed in the bass department).  The Rock can kick out some serious bass...making almost all music fun.

Keep in mind the WTA has a 10.5" arm versus the Rocks 9".  The longer arm will track better, all things equal, so there's a little more delicacy to the treble.  Also, a shorter arm tends to sound a bit more stout....a longer arm may have a tradeoff in stiffness for better tracking and delicacy/fluidity.

Either way, I'm certain both products are simply nice efforts all in all and it's splitting hairs which one is truly better.  It just comes down to personal subjectivity.

Cheers, John

[SteveFord]

Roscoeiii,
Does the azimuth hold steady for you on the Amadeus?  It almost always needs a tweak on the adjuster knob on my older ones.
Also, how effective is the anti skating adjustment on the new WT?

[roscoeiii]

Keep in mind the WTA has a 10.5" arm versus the Rocks 9".  The longer arm will track better, all things equal, so there's a little more delicacy to the treble.  Also, a shorter arm tends to sound a bit more stout....a longer arm may have a tradeoff in stiffness for better tracking and delicacy/fluidity.

That's a very good point. Other than knowing that generally a longer arm is preferable, I didn't know how it would affect the sound. Once the comparison between the two tables is done, I will see what I can do to really dial in the treble on the Rock. Maybe I can get it to better approach the delicacy of the WTA? Other than an arm upgrade or cart change, what areas of dialing in the set-up should I look to in search of improving the treble?

Either way, I'm certain both products are simply nice efforts all in all and it's splitting hairs which one is truly better.  It just comes down to personal subjectivity.

Cheers, John

 
EXACTLY. Both are superb tables with slightly different emphases.

[roscoeiii]

Roscoeiii,
Does the azimuth hold steady for you on the Amadeus?  It almost always needs a tweak on the adjuster knob on my older ones.
Also, how effective is the anti skating adjustment on the new WT?

In my experience, the azimuth holds pretty steady. Can't recall having to adjust it.

Anti-skating I didn't mess with at all. Friend who is a former dealer came by to help with the WTA set-up and said that I needn't worry about antiskate. So I didn't. 

[TheChairGuy]

That's a very good point. Other than knowing that generally a longer arm is preferable, I didn't know how it would affect the sound. Once the comparison between the two tables is done, I will see what I can do to really dial in the treble on the Rock. Maybe I can get it to better approach the delicacy of the WTA? Other than an arm upgrade or cart change, what areas of dialing in the set-up should I look to in search of improving the treble?

The 10.5" arm will track approximately 11% better tracing than a 9" arm...that's just the math of it. Other than dialing in the VTA and azimuth dead on with the 9" arm...the 10.5" arm will sound a bit more fluid because of the better tracking.

Not much you can do except choose which table, overall, you prefer.

Again, your splitting hairs at this point, so it comes down to looks, sound preference, ease of set-up, price or whatever else are important tenets in your decision making. 

Sorry their both such good tables that making a decision is difficult.....it's great to have issues like that   

[roscoeiii]

Many thanks ChairGuy. Much appreciated.

[neobop]

Actually, tracking and alignment error aren't the same thing. Even tracing is dependant on other factors beside alignment error. So saying 11% better is an oversimplification. The Rock 7 uses a Rega arm and eff length is 237 which is 9.33", < 11% difference in alignment error?  If you calculate that in degrees rather than percentage, it doesn't sound like much.

One of those other factors is time. The further the stylus is from the pivot, the slower the response. I'm not really making an arguement for shorter arms, it's just that you sometimes give something up to gain something else. A couple of prominent designers arrived at 240mm as optimal eff length.