[jlafrenz]

It doesn't seem like there are any alarming issues with my room based upon the drawing and everyone's suggestions. It does seem that the rear panels have come up more than once. I am hoping to do some subjective listening this weekend. The plan is to remove only one set of panels in the room and rotate which ones they are and read up on the Live End, Dead End concept. I may also try a couple of other speaker placements. I realize this not necessarily scientific, but trial and error. At least it would be something simple to do and see what I like and works in my room until I can get my hands on some measurement equipment.

[Mitsuman]

Do it and report back. Of course there's some science to it, but if anyone tries to tell you that trial and error isn't part of this whole thing, take it with a grain of salt. Enjoy the music.

[Tyson]

LEDE (Live End, Dead End), is a good solution and can work.  Another option is to use less panels and drop in some diffusers.  People sell diffusers, but you can also make your own for cheap.  Or, for really really cheap, you can use books and bookshelves, if you have some already.  Just make sure the books are different sized and not all lined up in a neat line.  IMO diffusers are best placed behind the speakers.

[jlafrenz]

Just got done with a 2 hour listening session trying different scenarios by removing panels. I started with everything the way it was to get a base line. I then removed the rear panels. I clapped my hands and didn't really notice a whole lot of change in the slap echo so that made me feel good. Played a few songs and took observation. I noticed there was a bit more punch in the music, but it still seemed like the music struggled during dynamic passages. Also noticed a bit more bass build up.

Replaced the rear panels and removed the small 2'x2' panels that were 2" thick. Still no real change in slap echo. The music was a bit more forward, but not quite as much punch as removing the rear panels. Still the music lacked depth and struggled during dynamic passages. Noticing that my speakers rear ports fire directly at the inner edge of the bass traps, which are very close to touching where the panels I had just removed are, I decided to have the speakers face directly forward. This has it's own ups and downs. A bit more forward, but I really lost imaging. At this point I feel like banging my head against a wall.

Since I couldn't get the sound to come out further into the room with the removal of panels, I thought I would physically bring the sound out into the room. I ran the quick calculations for the Cardas setup in my room and placed the speakers there and adjusted my seating position. This made a noticeable change. Far from perfect, but it had a good base to build off of. The sound finally had some depth and was out into the room. The does not come without consequences though. My seating position is now just under 3 ft from the rear of the room (13'6" deep). Does this pose any real problem? Also the bass is more noticeable and a bit sloppy. It feels like it is building up or the timing is a bit off and hanging a bit. I hope that by moving my first reflection point panels further back to where they should be after moving the speakers and bringing the subwoofer up to the same spot the speakers are will correct this.

The leaves me with a couple of questions until I can give it another listen. Any thoughts on having the 6" thick panels at first reflection points and just the 2" thick panels at the rear of the room? What else can I do to tighten the bass up and keep it punchy? I also wanted to add that I did notice a bit more slap echo at this speaker and seating position.

[Tyson]

Turn off the sub and work with the front 2 speakers only.  Get them sounding awesome first, then bring in the sub.  This will simplify your issues enormously. 

[gooberdude]

That's good advice from Tyson.  I am voluntarily sub-less at the moment, dialing in full range drivers.  I figure if I can get them to sing then adding the bass will be straightforward.

If better imaging is what you are after, can you push the equipment rack against the back wall, so there's nothing between the speakers but floor space?   

[jlafrenz]

Great tip Tyson. Any suggestions on what to do next to smooh out the bass?

 The rack is against the front wall with enough space to get behind it enough to connect things. The speakers are quite far out into the room. The tweeters are 62" off the front wall.

[Tyson]

Yes.  After you get the front 2 speakers sounding good, then put the sub in your listening seat.  Walk and/or crawl around the room.  The place that sounds the best is where you should put your sub.

Or, even better, get 2 more subs and distribute all of them asymmetrically around the room.  More subs equals less bass modes and smoother overall in-room response.

But I would not even think about that stuff till you get the front 2 mains sounding good first.

[jlafrenz]

I'm familiar with getting the sub placed correctly. It is a OB design from GR Research (lower half of the V2) so it blends nicely. I was seeking some advice on getting the bass right with just the 2 monitors. I am assuming just small movements until it smooths out. I will also adjust the first reflection panels.

[JohnR]

Hi, since it's a dipole sub, you could try a (much) closer placement. The measurable results are significantly better, as I documented in this article:

http://www.hifizine.com/2012/03/on-dipole-subwoofer-placement/

[jlafrenz]

That article has been on my list of things to read for the last week. I just haven't got around to doing it yet. I plan to today though.

I double checked my first reflection point panels today and where they are currently located from the previous speaker placement is where they need to stay. I determined this using the mirror trick. I thought moving the speakers out into the room would mean that I needed to move the panels further back as well. Perhaps I did not get them quite right the first time. Anyway... Other thoughts about tweaking the room to tighten up the bass from just the monitors? I am thinking about switching the panels from the rear of the room to the first reflection points to see what that does. My only other thoughts are making minor adjustments to speaker placement or perhaps diffusion, but at which point I am not sure.

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

The title of this thread really states how I feel about my listening experience in my 2 channel room. It is dull and muted.

Since I have been trying different amps, DAC's, tubes and failed to get the sound I was after.

Time to stop investing money and start enjoying my system.


[/quote

So when you moved in the new place, you find it sounds dull & muted.

Want to tell us what are the original finishes/structure of the ceiling, walls & floor?

c-J

[Glenn Kuras]

LEDE (Live End, Dead End), is a good solution and can work.  Another option is to use less panels and drop in some diffusers.  People sell diffusers, but you can also make your own for cheap.  Or, for really really cheap, you can use books and bookshelves, if you have some already.  Just make sure the books are different sized and not all lined up in a neat line.  IMO diffusers are best placed behind the speakers.

Book shelves may be better then a flat wall but it is not really going to diffuse the sound.
As far as LEDE rooms, IMO in a 2 channel listening room where you are sitting back in the room, a true LEDE room really is not going to work. Now if you have a 24 foot room then you might be able to do it. LEDE are mostly for control rooms where you sit in the front. Needless to say though you could use kind of LEDE design but I stress the word "KIND OF"

[jlafrenz]

Would it be best in my room if the first reflection points were 4" thick instead of 2"?

[Ethan Winer]

^^^ Probably not. Those reflections are more of an issue at mid and high frequencies, and two inches thick is plenty. However, thicker panels add a little more bass trapping into the room, which can only help.

--Ethan

[Glenn Kuras]

^^^ Probably not. Those reflections are more of an issue at mid and high frequencies, and two inches thick is plenty. However, thicker panels add a little more bass trapping into the room, which can only help.

--Ethan

Right and to put some meat on the bone  I did a test just the other day in our test room/lab with a 2" and 4" panel on a concrete floor to measure the impact of the reflection. Basically the 3 m is the bounce and as you can see the 4" did a bit better to bring it down but 2" over all did the job.

No treatment


One 2x4 2" panel spaced 2" off the floor


One 2x4 4" panel spaced 2" off the floor

[Big Red Machine]

Nice Glenn, thanks for doing the measurements.  See you guys in a few weeks.

[Roc]

The attached image is a rough layout of your room showing reflecton points.
You seem to have the foam in the right places to kill all of the early reflections.  Good job!

But having your listening position so close to the rear wall creates difficult challenges.
Any time you are very close to a boundary you will hear reflections, even with acoustic foam.
I'm surprised the sound is "clear".  I'd predict it would be a bit muddy.
A listening position too close to rear wall can cause the bass to get boomy. A few inches closer or further away makes a big difference.
Speakers too far away from listening position and you might get a bass echo.

My 2 cents worth.  With sub off.
Move your seat closer or further from the rear wall untill the bass response is good, but not boomy.
Then pull the speakers closer, or further away from you to improve bass tightness and improve clarity.
Then find the best speaker location from the side walls.  This can make a big difference in clarity.
Repeat all 3 above for fine tuning.

DIY fiberglass bass traps might be something to try in the 3 corners.

Dave

[jlafrenz]

Thanks for the advice Dave. Having my seat close to the rear wall is certainly an issue. I am guessing this is one of the main reasons that 6" thick traps were recommended to me for the rear of my room. For the setup I have pictured, the bass wasn't too bad or boomy. It just seemed like the life was sucked out of the mids and highs. Since then, I have adjusted my speaker placement which has actually moved my seat closer to the rear wall and the speakers out into the room. My ears are just under 3ft from the rear wall. This has opened up the sound quite a bit, but as a result the bass is a bit more boomy/echo. This is what prompted my question about having thicker first reflection point panels. I figured there would be more absorption in the low end. I do need to listen without the sub and then make some minor adjustments. Once I have those, get the sub placement and dialed in. I have also been reading on Ethan's website about some placement options and want to try out the 38% rule. This would get me off that back wall about twice as far as my most recent seating position.

[Ethan Winer]

Since then, I have adjusted my speaker placement which has actually moved my seat closer to the rear wall and the speakers out into the room. My ears are just under 3ft from the rear wall.

Have you ever tried a near-field setup? If this were my room I'd have the speakers 3-4 feet apart, very close to the front wall at the top of the drawing, and I'd sit 3-4 feet away. That will likely give you the largest sound field available in that room, short of lining all the walls with diffusers. It's at least something to try when you have a spare half hour.

--Ethan