[jlafrenz]

The title of this thread really states how I feel about my listening experience in my 2 channel room. It is dull and muted. There are a few things going on in this room I am hoping to gain some advice on. Let me provide a little back story that has lead me back to square one. I have not really been happy with this room since I moved here. Since I have been trying different amps, DAC's, tubes and failed to get the sound I was after. After speaking with an acoustics company I gained a lot of insight made some adjustments to the panels I had and added some more. Bass build up and a bad echo are the issues facing my room. So after taking the advice I received, I did see an improvement in sound, but still not happy overall. So instead of continuing to spend money on components, I have decided to get back to square one and get the room right. I have provided a sketch of the room and layout below. The black boxes are where the acoustic panels are at.

My placement doesn't exactly follow a method. I tried the Cardas (worked well in my previous room) and then the rule of 1/3's. I ended up finding a spot for my speakers that didn't have too much bass and a spot for my chair that is around 1/3 from the rear of the room, but not exactly.

So my question for everyone is where do I need to start. Is it my panel placement and type causing the compressed high end, the speaker layout or both? Bass traps in the corners are 4' thick and 8ft tall (floor to ceiling). Panels directly behind the speakers are 2" and on 2'x2'. First reflection points are 2" thick and 2'x4'. Panels in the back of the room are on stands. They are 6" thick and 2'x4'.

I am open to your suggestions. If there is any more info that may be helpful please let me know and I provide it. Time to stop investing money and start enjoying my system.

[drummermitchell]

Your room looks the same shape as mine(only I have a couple extra feet)in length.
What about ceiling(first reflections(242's),I did mine and the highs are alot more distinct,cleaned up quite nice.
I wonder about diffusion on that back wall,I ordered 3 Realtraps diffusers(received one today)hopefully the other two tomorrow.I'm not playing any music until I have the other two in place .Hoping to expand the room so to speak.
My ceiling is only 7' high(filled)with safe and sound in ceiling joists.
My highs are far from compressed.I am using Gik tri(stacked)in corners,also along the ceiling wall corners.
That back short wall using two 6"D monster traps,and ceiling and wall 1st reflections are the 242's.
Perhaps Bryan or Ethan will pop in,I'd like to know the possible answer also.

I did try my sub at the front like yours,she seamlessly disappears about midway on my right wall,freed up my mids and highs tremendously.

[jlafrenz]

I know the ceiling would be an ideal spot to work on, but don't think it will work out in my room for a couple of reasons. The first is that there is a ceiling fan in the room (not on while I listen) and because if the texture on the ceiling. It would be a paint to patch up if I ever move. Hoping I don't have to mess with it.

My sub placement seems to work well. Blends in nicely where it is at.

[Jonathon Janusz]

I am a complete novice at best at this (put lightly!), but I've seen a few folks around here describing similar problem. . .

How about going cheap first to see if the changes go in the right direction regarding your treatments? 

Idea 1: Maybe move both the panels in the back of the room to take up the back right corner (to try to better balance with the hallway corner), and set the panels behind the speakers down on the floor - leave them spaced the same, but lay them on an angle across the front wall/floor (or take them down entirely to test). Result: live front/back wall, additional bass trapping.

Idea 2: Move back panels across the back right corner, side wall panels to the back wall (lay them against the wall for now - just to test), front wall panels to where the side wall panels are now.  Result: additional bass trapping, live front wall with less lively (but more than start) side/back walls.

Idea 3: One back panel across the back right corner, one back panel centered at front of room, all else stays as-is.  Result: bass trapping, live back wall, dead front wall.

To get where you're trying to go (based on the results of others) will probably be heading to some diffusion somewhere in the equation, but with as much stuff as you have, playing around with it a bit should at least get you in the ballpark to know what direction to head in.

Good luck!

[jlafrenz]

I am not as concerned with trapping the bass towards the floor. The room is carpeted and it seems to do quite well down low. I can clap my hands at floor level and there is no real slap echo. As I raise the height of my hands an continue to clap the echo becomes worse. It was recommended that I treat my walls higher up as opposed to down low.

[Jonathon Janusz]

Yep, figured that.  Just thought putting stuff on the floor (temporarily) to see where the room goes would be cheaper/easier/faster than trying to get stuff up high.  More thinking on the lines of gradually decreasing some of the treatments in a controlled fashion.

Cheers!

[Ern Dog]

How about moving the right back wall panel into that back right corner and leave the left one where it's at.  Bass tends to load up in the corners and that corner is right next to the listening chair.  Worth a shot.

[ptmconsulting]

I've found that the "live end - dead end" usually results in more dynamic and more real sound. I agree that you may want to remove those panels behind your listening position and see what happens, keeping your treatments at the speaker end of the room. Another suggestion would be to put diffusers at those first reflection points rather than absorbers.

Now, however, if your speakers are dipoles or panels or have a rear firing tweeter then you might want to turn this around and leave the speaker end a little more open to take advantage of the sound radiating back from the speaker, leaving only bass traps in the corners.

[DTB300]

One thing to try for absorbing too much high end (too dead).  Take something like a black garbage bag and cut it into a piece 2' wide by 3' long.  Put this piece over the TOP 1/2 of one of your panels (T-Pins or any type of pin can be used to hold in place temporarily) - I started with the rear room panels - and see how the sound changes.  While you still get bass absorption, you will start to reflect more high end. 

Do the highs get better for you?  If not try covering more of the rear panels.  Rinse, Repeat, etc.  Real Traps have bass traps with just absorption and some with high frequency reflection (membrane below fabric to help reflection).  This is "sort of" what the plastic bags test does/emulate.

If you like the improved high end, you might want to try out some diffusion called GridFusors from GIK (2' x 2').  These too can be easily attached to the front of a panel (T-Pins work great for a temp solution). Try them first on top 1/2 of both rear panels.   Then try top 1/2 of front panels.  Then try all 4 position.  With these installations, you get diffusion with low end absorption behind it.

If you like diffusion improvement by placing in front of panel, you might want to just put diffusion where the panel was and then flank the diffusion with your bass panels.  So you would have [Bass Panel-Diffusors-Bass Panel]

With the 2' x 2' diffusor, you can also experiment with other placement - 1st reflection, front wall center, etc. etc.  I have found in my partial basement that diffusion in the middle of front wall and middle of rear wall sounded the best.   I stacked two on top of each other and have them from the ceiling down.   My ceiling is only 6'8" so the bottom 2+ ft really did not matter that the diffusion was not covering.

I also have 23 absorption panels throughout my room (partial basement - concrete everywhere - reflections and room gain galore).  The diffusor addition really helped out my sound.

Each room is different and each of our tastes are also different.  Find what you like best in your room for your rig.

[Hipper]

Have you tried a set up using the long wall on the right, so your chair is on the left? Is that possibe?

If so, do it with all the panels removed from the room at first and try and get the best bass. Then introduce your bass traps. Your speaker manufacturer should be able to offer advice about speaker placement. He should also be able to tell you what the spread of the mids and high frequencies will be. That way you'll have an idea of how they will be reflected.

Another possibility is to remove the side panels so you DO get side wall reflections. I found this added a bit of life to my room.

I also found that, with a carpet and my speakers around 10' from my chair, ceiling absorbers made no difference. My chair has a high back so rear wall absorbers also do nothing.

How do you know what bass frequencies, and other ones, are troubling you?

As well as acoustic foam, I used a digital equaliser to solve some problems (a Behringer DEQ2496). Complicated to use but I like the results.

[bpape]

You can use some lightweight diffusers on the front of the rear panels to diffuse mids and highs yet allow the bass to pass through. 

Another option is to possibly replace some of the more broadband treatments (rear) with something more tuned to only function over 2-4 bass octaves and do nothing to the mids and highs.

The first option would likely be more cost effective.

Bryan

[jlafrenz]

I am not as concerned with trapping the bass towards the floor. The room is carpeted and it seems to do quite well down low. I can clap my hands at floor level and there is no real slap echo. As I raise the height of my hands an continue to clap the echo becomes worse. It was recommended that I treat my walls higher up as opposed to down low.

After re-reading your post and a couple of others, it makes a lot more sense of what you were suggesting I do. It seems that removing the rear panels is something that I need to try. I do worry about the slap echo that this will introduce though. I still plan on trying it to see where it gets me.

Have you tried a set up using the long wall on the right, so your chair is on the left? Is that possibe?

If so, do it with all the panels removed from the room at first and try and get the best bass. Then introduce your bass traps. Your speaker manufacturer should be able to offer advice about speaker placement. He should also be able to tell you what the spread of the mids and high frequencies will be. That way you'll have an idea of how they will be reflected.

Another possibility is to remove the side panels so you DO get side wall reflections. I found this added a bit of life to my room.

I also found that, with a carpet and my speakers around 10' from my chair, ceiling absorbers made no difference. My chair has a high back so rear wall absorbers also do nothing.

How do you know what bass frequencies, and other ones, are troubling you?

As well as acoustic foam, I used a digital equaliser to solve some problems (a Behringer DEQ2496). Complicated to use but I like the results.

I don't think that rotating the room would really work well. I think that it would become much to nearfield (more so than it is already). I don't have any measurements of what specific frequencies are issues. I sent pictures and discussed on the phone with an acoustics company what my best solution should be. The focus was to get rid of the slap echo and why I feel that the large traps in the rear of the room were suggested.

I do use a Behringer in my other system for my subs so I am familiar. A local dealer has a room analyzer that he keeps talking about. I know he would let me bring it home and try it out. I probably should be more proactive about acquiring it.

I have received some good info about panel placement, but wanted to also make sure that there are no immediate issues with my actual speaker and seating positions. I moved the speakers last night and didn't gain any improvement. I will put them back and work on the panel placement. From there I may try some other placements of speakers and seating. I have been thinking about removing the panels directly behind the speakers because the tweeter is about 4ft from the font wall placing the rear port a little over 3 ft from the wall.

[max190]

jlafrenz,
My room is almost the exact same size as yours 12.6 x 15.6 x 7.8
Getting the bass clean, tight and coherent was the hardest part for me. Still a work in progress...

Since you say your room is lacking dynamics I am curious. Can you please list the config of your system?
Thanks

[Nyal Mellor]

Take some acoustic measurements, and post them up here so we can see what's going on. Without measurements you are just shooting in the dark!

[jlafrenz]

jlafrenz,
My room is almost the exact same size as yours 12.6 x 15.6 x 7.8
Getting the bass clean, tight and coherent was the hardest part for me. Still a work in progress...

Since you say your room is lacking dynamics I am curious. Can you please list the config of your system?
Thanks

Aurum Cantus Monitor 1 speakers, Antique Sound Lab 1003 integrated amp, and the DAC's have been changing. I previously had the Jolida Tube DAC, now I have the Channel Islands VDA-1. I have also been using an AudioTrak Prodigy sound card.

Take some acoustic measurements, and post them up here so we can see what's going on. Without measurements you are just shooting in the dark!

It certainly feels like I am going about this with a blindfold on. I assume that it will be best to have measurements with and without panels in the room. I will see if I can get a hold of something to take the measurements.

[max190]

Nice system sir
I know you mentioned time to stop investing but have you ever tried to roll the tubes in the pre-amp section?

[Hipper]

You could make some room measurements with the Behringer using its Real Time Analyser with it's own Pink Noise source. You will however need a microphone, microphone stand and suitable cable.

Some will no doubt argue it's not that accurate but it should give some good clues as to what is going on.

If you need any help on this just ask!

[jlafrenz]

Nice system sir
I know you mentioned time to stop investing but have you ever tried to roll the tubes in the pre-amp section?

Thanks!

I have tube rolled the pre-amp and the Jolida DAC (when I had it). I have Mullards, Sylvania, RCA, GE, JJ's and just picked up some Westinghouse tubes. Kicking myself for passing on some Amperex.

I have other amps in this system as well. Both tube and solid state. Still wasn't able to get the sound I want. My swapping of gear is more than just the DAC's unfortunately.

You could make some room measurements with the Behringer using its Real Time Analyser with it's own Pink Noise source. You will however need a microphone, microphone stand and suitable cable.

Some will no doubt argue it's not that accurate but it should give some good clues as to what is going on.

If you need any help on this just ask!

I don't have a microphone to use. I could use REW with an SPL meter just to get an idea of what is going on. My local dealer has a Sencore room analyzer he keeps talking about. He has offered to let me bring it home and use it. I really have no clue, but it would be worth learning how.

[kip_]

Take some acoustic measurements, and post them up here so we can see what's going on. Without measurements you are just shooting in the dark!

How does one measure dynamics? Impulse response? Waterfalls? RT60?

[Ethan Winer]

How does one measure dynamics? Impulse response? Waterfalls? RT60?

There really is no such property as "dynamics." Yes, a "dynamic" signal could be considered as having a large difference between the soft and loud parts. But that's a function of the source material, not the gear. The ability of an audio device to reproduce such signals accurately can be measured using the standard metrics: frequency response, distortion, and noise. Unless a circuit is driven into clipping, or is defective in some way, it should be able to reproduce any type of music you give it.

Now, in the context of room acoustics, untamed ambience could cloud the sound giving the impression of less dynamic range. Without hearing the OP's room it's difficult to guess.

--Ethan