[Chicago]

Being new I am not sure this post belongs in the Bryston section, but the speakers are being pushed and fed with Bryston (4Bsst, BP-25 and BCD-1) so I will take a chance.  I also do not have the full vernacular of you folks so feel free to educate me.  Over the last few days I have listened to B&W N802, 803s, 804D and PMC OB1i.  Unfortunately the location I was at didn't have the 803D but I felt lucky they had three used speakers I had read up on and thought I might enjoy.

It doesn't seem one could make a bad choice in this line up, assuming you enjoy the B&W sound.  I spent maybe 4 hours the first day comparing the N802, 803s and PMC OB1i.  I liked the PMC OB1i better for classical and some instrumentals but I enjoyed the B&W for vocals.  I was also concerned the PMC's might be too small for the room they were going in.  The N802 are probably the best value but are the oldest model and at times the music seemed almost disjointed, but I really enjoyed the full sound of these speakers.  At times the midrange seemed superior to the others.  With fear my better half might not warm to the bulging eye of the N802's I dropped those and spent several hours comparing the 803s and PMC OB1i.  Near the end of the session I decided to listen to the 804D and that was a mistake because I am not sure what all they changed in this speaker but they had more clarity than the others and had a captivating smooth and silky sound.  I decided to come back the next day and compare the 804D and PMC OB1i and then try the 804D vs the 803s.

The next day I came with even a larger selection of music and listened for about 5 or 6 hours.  I finally eliminated the PMC OB1i and concentrated on the 804D and 803s.  I decided to take home the 804D and see if they would be large enough for our space.  After listening for a couple of hours today I took them back and brought home the 803s and I am listening to them as I write this.

At times the bass seems a little forced but that is not a major complaint.  I am trying to decide if any of these speakers are enough better than my existing speakers to justify the expense.  If money were no object I think the 803D would be the ticket because the 804D have an overall better sound than the 803s.  But the 803s fills the room much better and is a shade more than 1/2 the cost of the 804D and less than 1/2 the cost of the 803D's.

It's been great listening and I will keep the 803s for maybe a week and then try and make a decision if I want to pull the trigger on those or try the 803D's.  Right now I have a hard time trying to justify the cost of much beyond the 803s.  As a bonus the dealer has a program that if you purchase speakers from them they will give you 100% of the purchase price towards an upgrade any time in the next year.  It also applies to used speakers but the second set then has to be new.  Hmm, maybe I take the 803s and then pop for the 804D in a year.

Any thoughts?     

[SHV]

I would try the "best value" at home for a week.  You may find that they sound better for you in your listening room.  I've had my N802s for 8(?) trouble free years and have no plans to replace them.

Steve

[Chicago]

I would try the "best value" at home for a week.  You may find that they sound better for you in your listening room.  I've had my N802s for 8(?) trouble free years and have no plans to replace them.

Steve

Thanks Steve and I will give them a go if I can get a sign off from my better half.  My gut was the fullness of the sound would probably work the best in our living room that has a fair amount of size and volume.  Given the room they have to pass "the appearance" test. 

Did my comments on the speakers make sense to you or am I hearing something that really isn't there?  The dealers room is not ideal for listening and is probably rather poor and it is small and I don't know the impact that might have had on the sound.

[Stu Pitt]

I haven't listened to those speakers as critically as you have.  Trust your own ears as far as that's concerned.  They're the only ones connected to your brain after all, and you're the only one who needs to justify the purchase.  With that being said...

The speaker/room interface is the most important thing when contemplating speakers IMO.  Better speakers may easily sound worse than inferior speakers if they're in the wrong environment.  A small speaker that's technically inferior may sound far better than a huge speaker that's technically better in a small room.  If the speaker doesn't fit the room, the results wil be less that ideal.

When both speakers are in the right room for respective their size, my Audio Physic Yara Evolution Bookshelves are a far better speaker to my ears than the Revel Concerta F12.  Put my Yaras in a large open room, and they'll struggle.  I'll take the Revels any day over them under those conditions.  Put the Revels in a 12x10 room, and they'll be just about unlistenable without going throwing more than the speakers' cost in sound absorption panels.

If you can, try both speakers in your room.  The speaker that sounded inferior may sound a good bit better once they're in your room.  That's the only way to truly know which speaker is better.  Worth the added cost (if the more expensive ones sound better) is a personal thing.  With both speakers auditioned at home, you'll know which one is right for you. 

[SHV]

"My gut was the fullness of the sound would probably work the best in our living room that has a fair amount of size and volume.  Given the room they have to pass "the appearance" test."
*********
When I was between houses, I had the 802 in an apt. with listening room of 9 x 12 x 8.  They didn't sound good in that volume.  They, along with eight other B &Ws of various sizes are in a 16 x 33 x 8 listening room.  The 802s in two channel mode fill the space very well.

My wife is very particular about "design" issues and has never complained about the 802's appearance.  They are certainly less boring to look at, compared to a rectangular box, IMHO.

Steve

[Rocket]

Hi,

There are a few speaker manufacturers who have their own forums on this site and represent great value.  It might be worth looking at them as well.

Regards

Rod

[Chicago]

SHV, Stu Pitt and Rocket:
Thanks for taking the time to reply. 
Rocket: I will take a look at the speaker forums to see if their are other options. 

Stu: I think the "speaker/room interface" was the issue with the 804D's when I had them at the house.  At the present time I have the 803s at the house and they do a much better job of filling the space and reading the post by SHV the larger speakers are going to spend some time here.

SHV:  My room is similar to yours but it may have more volume.  The room is 27'x16' but the ceiling starts at 8' and goes up to 15' and then drops to 12'.  Based on your comments it sounds as though the N802's may do an even better job.  After giving these a few days to a week I am going to try the N802's and see how they sound here at the house. 

Do you get a harshness from any of your B&W's with some recordings?  I am noticing it with the 803s especially with the horns in classical music and right now I am trying to figure out if it is the quality of the recording or the aluminum tweeter.  I didn't notice it with the 804D's in their short stay, but they seem to have a smoother and silkier sound than the older models.

[SHV]

"Do you get a harshness from any of your B&W's.."
********
Sure...but is it the recording, playback equipment, the status of my brains auditory processing, etc.  I would say that if the speaker sounds good with a various recordings in your listening room most of the time then they are OK for you.  As a example, after I first got my BDP-1, I usually left it in "up sampling" mode.  Occasionally I would hear brief sections of music that sounded harsh," just wrong".  I wondered if there was an intermittent problem with the tweeter in the 802s.  It was frustrating because I couldn't reproduce the effect nor was it predictable.  I turned off the up sampling and haven't had the problem since.

My bias is that a person can go so far out into the audio "weeds" that the thought of making the wrong decision and then second guessing "the decision" can ruin the pleasure of the "hobby".  There are likely many speaker choices that meet your needs in the right price range, if it the 803, 802, etc. get them and move on.  I have,  at quick glance,  >$70k in A-V equipment in my main listening area.  I auditioned none of it.

With your room volume and configuration, in home evaluation is a smart move on your part, IMHO.

Steve

[Chicago]

Steve: Thanks for the reply and I understand the comment about second guessing the choice.  On a separate  note how do you like the BDP-1?  After I find a pair of new speakers I am going to try and get a little better educated about downloading music. 

When I make a speaker move I will post the results. 

Mike

[SHV]

"On a separate  note how do you like the BDP-1? "
**********
One of the best audio purchases that I made.  For about a year I was looking at moving to computer/music server options, especially the Mac Mini.  There seemed to be a lot of discussion about best software, various upgrades, good, bad, etc.; with that I held off.  I was researching a new CD player when I can across this forum and the BDP-1.  After reading comments for a few months and still not quite understanding what it did, I ordered a BDP-1/BDA-1.  It's essentially plug and play music server.  Most of my music is from ripping my CD collection and some high res downloads.  With the BDA, I can stream from an I-Pod dock or Apple-TV.

Just the ability to have my CD collection organized and easily retrievable is worth the price of the BDP-1.  I am now buying more CDs  than I have during the past five years.  That's in addition to downloads.

Steve

[Chicago]

Thanks, Mike

[werd]

SHV, Stu Pitt and Rocket:
Thanks for taking the time to reply. 
Rocket: I will take a look at the speaker forums to see if their are other options. 

Stu: I think the "speaker/room interface" was the issue with the 804D's when I had them at the house.  At the present time I have the 803s at the house and they do a much better job of filling the space and reading the post by SHV the larger speakers are going to spend some time here.

SHV:  My room is similar to yours but it may have more volume.  The room is 27'x16' but the ceiling starts at 8' and goes up to 15' and then drops to 12'.  Based on your comments it sounds as though the N802's may do an even better job.  After giving these a few days to a week I am going to try the N802's and see how they sound here at the house. 

Do you get a harshness from any of your B&W's with some recordings?  I am noticing it with the 803s especially with the horns in classical music and right now I am trying to figure out if it is the quality of the recording or the aluminum tweeter.  I didn't notice it with the 804D's in their short stay, but they seem to have a smoother and silkier sound than the older models.

Upgrading to the mps-2 on your bp-25 is the next logical step to help reduce the harshness. It will relax your treble significantly. Also IMHO opinion the sst series amps are probably not the way to go with B&Ws if you are complaining about "harshness". I owned both the pieces for years and know what you are hearing.

[dubkarma]

A bit off-topic, but since this thread started out by pointing out interesting speaker demos that used Bryston amplification (and perhaps other Bryston components), I thought it worth mentioning that one domain in which Bryston reigns, if not supreme, then certainly pre-eminent, is in the area of studio main (not nearfield) monitoring.

In the past twenty years, perhaps the single most successful main monitors for well-heeled recording and mastering studios are those custom-made by George Augspurger (Perception, Inc., Los Angeles). There are now scores, if not hundreds of these installed in studios across North America as well as in other parts of the world.

While Augspurger does not mandate any particular amplifier make or model to drive the monitors he designs (usually using dual TAD 15" woofers and 2" TAD compression drivers in distinctive cabinet with angled front baffles), something close to a de facto "standard" has evolved: for the LF, Bryston 7Bs or 14B; for the HF, Bryston 3B or 4B; for the crossover, the Bryston 10B Standard (sometimes customized), and for the equalizer, the White Instruments 4700. Some users favour three 4Bs. Others are now starting to migrate to DSP-based digital crossovers which combine crossover frequency and slope, equalization, delay and limiting into one small package. Others still prefer to keep crossover functions and equalization in the analogue domain.

Despite my initial skepticism, I have found that the Bryston/TAD combination works fantastically well. Apart from price considerations what makes this a difficult set-up to optimize for the home listener is that you really need an expert to configure the equalizer, since unlike typical passive crossovers, the 10B doesn't have any equalization built in. But for those willing and able to absorb this extra expense—not a great one, once one has shelled out for the hardware—the results are very impressive.

[Chicago]

Upgrading to the mps-2 on your bp-25 is the next logical step to help reduce the harshness. It will relax your treble significantly. Also IMHO opinion the sst series amps are probably not the way to go with B&Ws if you are complaining about "harshness". I owned both the pieces for years and know what you are hearing.

Werd:
Thanks and I will audition a mps-2 power source and see if this helps.  I have seen other comments that the sst can be harsh especially with B&W.  It really depends on the music I am listening to and I am beginning to think it may be the recordings.  With better quality recordings I don't hear it at all or only infrequently.  I would like to find the right speakers to work with the hardware in place.  At this point I am just going to keep auditioning until I find the right fit.  I feel like I am making progress.

Any speakers you would suggest for the gear I have?

Thanks, Mike 

[Rod_S]

Being new I am not sure this post belongs in the Bryston section, but the speakers are being pushed and fed with Bryston (4Bsst, BP-25 and BCD-1) so I will take a chance.  I also do not have the full vernacular of you folks so feel free to educate me.  Over the last few days I have listened to B&W N802, 803s, 804D and PMC OB1i.  Unfortunately the location I was at didn't have the 803D but I felt lucky they had three used speakers I had read up on and thought I might enjoy.

It doesn't seem one could make a bad choice in this line up, assuming you enjoy the B&W sound.  I spent maybe 4 hours the first day comparing the N802, 803s and PMC OB1i.  I liked the PMC OB1i better for classical and some instrumentals but I enjoyed the B&W for vocals.  I was also concerned the PMC's might be too small for the room they were going in.  The N802 are probably the best value but are the oldest model and at times the music seemed almost disjointed, but I really enjoyed the full sound of these speakers.  At times the midrange seemed superior to the others.  With fear my better half might not warm to the bulging eye of the N802's I dropped those and spent several hours comparing the 803s and PMC OB1i.  Near the end of the session I decided to listen to the 804D and that was a mistake because I am not sure what all they changed in this speaker but they had more clarity than the others and had a captivating smooth and silky sound.  I decided to come back the next day and compare the 804D and PMC OB1i and then try the 804D vs the 803s.

The next day I came with even a larger selection of music and listened for about 5 or 6 hours.  I finally eliminated the PMC OB1i and concentrated on the 804D and 803s.  I decided to take home the 804D and see if they would be large enough for our space.  After listening for a couple of hours today I took them back and brought home the 803s and I am listening to them as I write this.

At times the bass seems a little forced but that is not a major complaint.  I am trying to decide if any of these speakers are enough better than my existing speakers to justify the expense.  If money were no object I think the 803D would be the ticket because the 804D have an overall better sound than the 803s.  But the 803s fills the room much better and is a shade more than 1/2 the cost of the 804D and less than 1/2 the cost of the 803D's.

It's been great listening and I will keep the 803s for maybe a week and then try and make a decision if I want to pull the trigger on those or try the 803D's.  Right now I have a hard time trying to justify the cost of much beyond the 803s.  As a bonus the dealer has a program that if you purchase speakers from them they will give you 100% of the purchase price towards an upgrade any time in the next year.  It also applies to used speakers but the second set then has to be new.  Hmm, maybe I take the 803s and then pop for the 804D in a year.

Any thoughts?   

I'm glad you are enjoying your auditions. I have a quick question, are the 803D's you refer to 803 Diamonds (i.e the current generation 800 series) or the actual 803D's (first generation diamonds from the older 800 series)? I know the 804D's you describe are actually the 804 Diamonds because the previous generation 800 series did not offer a diamond tweeter on the 804. The reason I bring this up is because B&W made improvements, especially in the tweeter between the first generation diamonds and the current generation so if the 803D you speak of is truly a 803D and not a 803 Diamond you owe it to yourself to try and have a listen to the current version before making your final decision. It would also be great if you could get an in home audtion between a 803D and 803 Diamond especially since you have all ready had the 804 Diamond at home.

[Chicago]

I'm glad you are enjoying your auditions. I have a quick question, are the 803D's you refer to 803 Diamonds (i.e the current generation 800 series) or the actual 803D's (first generation diamonds from the older 800 series)? I know the 804D's you describe are actually the 804 Diamonds because the previous generation 800 series did not offer a diamond tweeter on the 804. The reason I bring this up is because B&W made improvements, especially in the tweeter between the first generation diamonds and the current generation so if the 803D you speak of is truly a 803D and not a 803 Diamond you owe it to yourself to try and have a listen to the current version before making your final decision. It would also be great if you could get an in home audtion between a 803D and 803 Diamond especially since you have all ready had the 804 Diamond at home.

Rod S:
They are the 803 Diamonds and when I crafted the thread I was not aware of the earlier 803D.  I am waiting for the dealer to ferry the 803 Diamonds from one location to another so I can have them delivered for an audition.  I have been listening to the 803s for five or six days and I am going to try and keep those here at the house until they deliver the 803 Diamonds for an audition.  Based on my experience with the 804 Diamonds and the 803s I think the 803 Diamonds are going to be the ticket.  I have been favorably impressed with the 803s although at times they seem to exhibit a little harshness that I believe I have isolated to the material being played.

[Chicago]

The 803 diamonds were delivered last night and I kept the 803s so I can make a good comparison.  After 2 hours of listening there really is no comparison between the speakers.  The diamonds have more clarity, are faster, have a better soundstage, are much better balanced and the bass is tighter.  Because of the larger box they also have more fullness to the sound and that works better in my room.  With some music the 803s would have an almost grating harshness in the highs and I have not noticed any of this with the diamonds.

If anyone out there has listened to both speakers or owned them I would like to hear your thoughts. 

SHV, the 802n's would not physically fit in the location they have to be placed so that has ruled them out.

I have had the 803s about two weeks and 75%+ of the time I have found them to be a very enjoyable speaker to the point where last Friday I was ready to buy them.  And then that grating popped up again on a couple of female vocals and a classical piece and I thought, nope I can't spend this kind of money and have that issue.  Now it could be my aging ears and some folks might not be bothered by it, or it could be the match of the 4Bsst/B25 and one person here noted the power source, but whatever it is I couldn't live with it.  I thought it was the material but I don't here it on the same tracks with the diamonds so it has to be in the speaker and I suspect the aluminum tweeter.

I am going to listen to the diamonds for a week or two but I will say after listening to them for a couple of hours that they are impressive and a significant improvement over the 803s.  I guess I am old school but after hearing gear at the dealer I want to audition it in my house and see how it fits in. 

I am still checking out some other companies but it is tough to find a dealer reasonably close where I can listen to them and then get a home audition.  At one persons suggestion I checked out a few speaker companies on this site and I really liked one but they are on the west coast with no dealer network.  They will ship me a set (my dime - makes sense) and I want to say there is a $200 fee that they apply towards the purchase price.  I don't know the cost of shipping 200 lbs of speakers cross country but I would want to hear them before popping for shipping and the fee.

Thanks for the thoughts to date.

Mike

[lowtech]

How does the 803D compare to the 800D?

[Chicago]

How does the 803D compare to the 800D?


[/quote

I have never heard the 800D or 800 Diamonds.  I didn't want to spoil myself for something that was well beyond my budget.  I did audition the old 802N but they wouldn't fit in the location my better half allows them to be.

[DaveNote]

Chicago, I agree entirely with Stu Pitt that you should trust your own ears. Anything we might say, however well intentioned, means nothing compared to your own preferences.

The problem is that there is no such thing as "perfect" because every individual has different preferences, and even then preferences within preferences.

My situation is an example. I run PMC MB2is speakers and 7BSST squared amps. Fabulous to my ears, but pricey. But I happened lately to set up a second system in my sound room - B&W 685 speakers and, added this week, a Harman Kardon HK3490 receiver. This system is used mostly in the early morning when my wife is sleeping, in lieu of using headphones.

The scond system is very inexpensive - just a little more than the cost of my headphones. But unexpectedly good. So good that some listeners might prefer it to the pricey PMC/Bryston combination. Why? The B&Ws, despite being at the very low end of the company's line, has an outstanding tweeter - if I had my druthers, I'd like to see them in my MB2is.

The Harmon Kardon, naturally, is not even in the same league as my Bryston gear, but has a great deal of detail, as well as a deep soundstage. Voices are nicely forward and articulate. In short, nothing that even an audiophile would be unhappy with.

The result, of course, is that, as you have found, the inexpensive system easily could be preferred for some kind of music.

So, if you're still in a bind as to what to do, but are looking for different kinds of sound for different kinds of music, you might consider buying upscale for the music you listen to the most, and try inexpensive gear for a second system.

Dave