Just purchased a Benz Ruby Z...and awaiting it's landing!

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic. Read 15468 times.

woodsyi

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 6513
  • Always Look on the Bright Side of Life!
Re: Just purchased a Benz Ruby Z...and awaiting it's landing!
« Reply #40 on: 27 Mar 2012, 03:23 pm »
Welcome to the LOMC twilight zone.  When I went from Rosewood Signature to Urushi (same company and all with 5ohm internal impedance) I got a humming issue that sure sounded like ground loop.  It look me months to work on it.  I checked all the connections, repositioned wires, rearranged plugs and what not.  The grounding wire from the tone arm affected the loudness of the hum.  I went to a balanced tonearm wire into my phonostage (no grounding needed) and problem was solved.  I don't know why I had hum issues with one cart and not the other.   :dunno:

Sonny

Re: Just purchased a Benz Ruby Z...and awaiting it's landing!
« Reply #41 on: 27 Mar 2012, 04:03 pm »
Welcome to the LOMC twilight zone.  When I went from Rosewood Signature to Urushi (same company and all with 5ohm internal impedance) I got a humming issue that sure sounded like ground loop.  It look me months to work on it.  I checked all the connections, repositioned wires, rearranged plugs and what not.  The grounding wire from the tone arm affected the loudness of the hum.  I went to a balanced tonearm wire into my phonostage (no grounding needed) and problem was solved.  I don't know why I had hum issues with one cart and not the other.   :dunno:

I don't either...it's like when I am touching the metal part of the tonearm with the Ruby Z on at those loading, the grounding is going through me...but the weird thing is, others that have this cartridge load theirs at those values fine!  my Shelter 901, a .5mV output has no issues at all?

Hm...should I send the cartridge back to be checked up just in case? 

orthobiz

Re: Just purchased a Benz Ruby Z...and awaiting it's landing!
« Reply #42 on: 27 Mar 2012, 05:07 pm »
I don't either...it's like when I am touching the metal part of the tonearm with the Ruby Z on at those loading, the grounding is going through me...but the weird thing is, others that have this cartridge load theirs at those values fine!  my Shelter 901, a .5mV output has no issues at all?

Hm...should I send the cartridge back to be checked up just in case?

Send it to me. I'll have an answer for you in....ummmm...12 months?  :lol:

Paul

woodsyi

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 6513
  • Always Look on the Bright Side of Life!
Re: Just purchased a Benz Ruby Z...and awaiting it's landing!
« Reply #43 on: 27 Mar 2012, 05:13 pm »
Does it do the same thing with the other phonostage? 

If you can't convince yourself that the cart is not defective, the lingering doubt will eat at you until you won't like the cart.  Send it back to have it checked out.  Let them fix it or give you a new one.  For the money you are paying you have to be sure you are getting a good one,  IMHO.

Sonny

Re: Just purchased a Benz Ruby Z...and awaiting it's landing!
« Reply #44 on: 27 Mar 2012, 05:18 pm »
Does it do the same thing with the other phonostage? 

If you can't convince yourself that the cart is not defective, the lingering doubt will eat at you until you won't like the cart.  Send it back to have it checked out.  Let them fix it or give you a new one.  For the money you are paying you have to be sure you are getting a good one,  IMHO.

Woodsyi, good advice...well, my other phono stage is fixed at 475 ohm right now.  I would have to change out the resistor to test it at say 825 or 1K...
I am going to try an borrow another phono with the higher loading and see what happens...
Thanks!

orientalexpress

Re: Just purchased a Benz Ruby Z...and awaiting it's landing!
« Reply #45 on: 27 Mar 2012, 05:40 pm »
if u need to send it out,be prepare to wait.u probably have a another baby before the Cartridge arrive  :thumb:.


lapsan

Sonny

Re: Just purchased a Benz Ruby Z...and awaiting it's landing!
« Reply #46 on: 27 Mar 2012, 05:44 pm »
if u need to send it out,be prepare to wait.u probably have a another baby before the Cartridge arrive  :thumb:.


lapsan

I know....

Sonny

Re: Just purchased a Benz Ruby Z...and awaiting it's landing!
« Reply #47 on: 30 Mar 2012, 05:52 pm »
Alright...
Hopefully I can put closure to this issue...

The players:
Benz Ruby Z
Shelter 901
DIY Pass XONO
Tom Evans Groove Phono
VPI 10.5i tonearms and armbase (one with VPI Copper wires / 901 and the other with Nordost Vahalla wires / Ruby Z)  With slightly bent bearing pivot

Problem: Loud Rustling noise when cuing the tonearm while touching the plastic housing of the arm-lift and / or tonearm cuing mechanism.  This only happens at input impedance of 875 ohms (loudest), 1k ohms and 47k ohms and only with the tone arm with Vahalla wiring and Benz Ruby Z on DIY Pass XONO.  There is no noise with the same combination at loading from 10, 30, 47, 100, 270 and 475 ohms.  Does not happen with Tom Evans Groove or tone arm with Shelter 901.    Doesn't not happen if I do the same thing but instead of cuing via the plastic covers on the arm lift or arm cuing mechanism, NO NOISE.

Trouble Shooting:
First checked to make sure it was not the Benz Ruby Z.  Did this by borrowing the Tom Evans Groove from a friend.  Loaded it at 1k ohms and the "noise" did not occur.  Also loaded at 500 and 330 ohms, no noise.  Could not load at 47k or 875 ohms, so don't know.  This pretty much says it only happens with Ruby Z and DIY Pass XONO.

Second, performed the same thing with the Shelter 901 on the XONO, no noise at any load impedance.  DONE

Third, Checked ground continuity between tonearm and tone arm ground lug from VPI Junction Box, full continuity when arm at rest.  There is continuity from headshell to ground lug.

Fourth, when doing the same thing but holding metal part of the arm, no noise...removed tone arm from base and moved it around, no noise...

Fifth, if I take a wire and connect it to the ground lug and attaching it to the metal part of the tonearm, when moving it in the same manner, there is no noise. 

Conclusion:
There is only noise with the Benz / XONO / and cuing the arm by touching the non-conductive part of the arm or armlift mechanism and the 875, 1k and 47k ohms settings. There seems to be inconsistent grounding of the tone arm (with bent pivot point) when moving the tone arm while touching the non-conductive area of the tone arm or arm lift. 

Why there is this loud rustling / inconsistent noise is still unknown but it seems to be an interaction between the Benz Ruby Z, XONO, grounding and certain loading impedance.  However we can guesstimate that when I am cuing the arm by using the non-conductive part of the tone arm, by body is acting as one of the capacitance plate and the tonearm/cartridge is the other plate.  Therefore and ground int interruptions are picked up by the Benz and amplified through the system.  However, if I am touching the metal part of the arm when cuing, I am acting as a ground to drain any interruptions in ground continuity therefore, reducing the noise being amplified.  Also, this is true because with the tonearm having constant ground (via the fifth trouble shooting) because if there is constant continuity to ground, there seems to be no noise.

Remedy:
1:  It seems that to remedy this, there are many ways to skin the cat...but if I use the Tom Evans instead of the XONO, problem solved! 

2:  Physical grounding of the tonearm by connecting a wire from the tonearm to the ground lug.  This will be difficult to do as it may through off the azimuth and anti-skating of the tonearm set up...

3:  Get a new bearing from VPI and  hope the issue is the bent bearing.  Hope that the new bearing will have constant continuity with ground.  (new bearing on order)

4:  Since I don't like the sound of the Benz on these settings (875, 1k or 47k ohms), who cares...play the Benz at 475 ohms or lower with the XONO and forgitaboutit!

5:  Play the Shelter only!

6:  There are a ton more...
-get a new set up,
-new tonearm,
-new cart,
-listen to digital,
-don't listen at all,
-sell my stuff
-and many many more!!!   :duh:
« Last Edit: 1 Apr 2012, 01:29 am by Sonny »

eweitzman

Re: Just purchased a Benz Ruby Z...and awaiting it's landing!
« Reply #48 on: 31 Mar 2012, 11:17 pm »
So, the underlying mystery still remains: why does this only happen with certain loads, the Xono , and the Benz? Where's the fault?

There are a bunch of things at play here. One of them probably explains why this is happening.

First, consider the circuit hooked up to the preamp. Tuan's body is capacitively coupled to the tonearm: he is one plate, the plastic tonearm lift cover is the insulator, and the tonearm lift and body are the other plate. The tonearm plate is grounded to the preamp ground via the bearing cup and unipivot needle (and ground wiring) when the arm isn't in motion. When the arm is moving, the bad bearing acts as a switch that is opening and closing both randomly and quickly as the metal surfaces chatter against each other. The other capacitor plate (Tuan) is either grounded to the floor or is acting as an antenna -- we don't know which. Either noise from the antenna Tuan, or removal of ground through Tuan, is causing noise to be injected into the ground of the Xono. The rustling characteristic follows the "switch" opening and closing as the metal surfaces chatter.

Next, the tonearm/cartridge circuit connected to the first gain device in the Xono consists of the cartridge's resistance and inductance, the wiring capacitance, the load resistor, the ground, and Tuan. With certain load resistors, the first gain stage amplifies the noise injected into the ground when Tuan holds and moves the tonearm. Why with only certain loads? Yesterday, I had two possible explanations: There's either a resonant circuit formed by these particular component values that's coincidentally tuned to something going on mechanically, or the first gain stage of the Xono is rectifying the high frequency noise from Tuan the antenna when this particular combination of values is added to the circuit.

Another possibility that's come to mind is that there may be a DC offset between ground in the Xono and Tuan the capacitor. Inductive coupling between the preamp's power supply transformer and the ground/chassis could be raising the ground voltage, or the charge on Tuan or whatever he's standing on could be raising the Tuan capacitor plate's voltage. The "switch" in the pivot would then cause the DC voltage to turn on and off rapidly, changing the operation conditions of the first gain stage or just showing up as plain noise. I've seen hundreds of volts from transformer leakage inductance before, which would drop to zero when the transformer body is properly grounded. The amount of current when making the ground connection was miniscule, so this was not an actual fault where the AC or DC grounds were shorted to the chassis.

The only way to know for sure what the actual cause is would be to measure for DC offsets and to scope the signal that's going into the Xono. Unfortunately, trying to measure either of these would change the grounding and loading and stop the noise! At least we now know that Tuan can double as a capacitor or an antenna when needed.

- Eric

neobop

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 3448
  • BIRD LIVES
Re: Just purchased a Benz Ruby Z...and awaiting it's landing!
« Reply #49 on: 1 Apr 2012, 02:15 am »
That's interesting, it just seems unlikely that the slightly bent pivot could be the switch. The arm is probably grounded closer to the base and the wiring doesn't go through the pivot. I guess it's somehow possible. I don't have a better explanation, but an unshielded wire touching the armtube and a resonant circuit at those loads would be more likely? I don't know but the problem is with the Xono IMO.

DC offset could be measured at the output of the phono stage. I think I read somewhere that the Xono has no caps on the output.  The output could be hooked up to a scope for that matter and the problem could probably be duplicated or seen. Since the people at Pass Labs said this sometimes happens, maybe the piece needs some modification. The Benz has a lower output but higher resistance than the Shelter and apparently 1K ohm is just too much for the combo. If 475 ohm is preferred anyway.....
neo

Edit: BTW, if in fact there are no caps at the output, you could measure DC offset with a regular meter on the output jacks, set to the mV scale. I'm not familiar with the Xono and/or any provisions for nulling this.
« Last Edit: 1 Apr 2012, 02:18 pm by neobop »

Sonny

Re: Just purchased a Benz Ruby Z...and awaiting it's landing!
« Reply #50 on: 3 Apr 2012, 06:14 pm »
That's interesting, it just seems unlikely that the slightly bent pivot could be the switch. The arm is probably grounded closer to the base and the wiring doesn't go through the pivot. I guess it's somehow possible. I don't have a better explanation, but an unshielded wire touching the armtube and a resonant circuit at those loads would be more likely? I don't know but the problem is with the Xono IMO.

No, actually the VPI arm is grounded via the pivot point (bearing).  I put in a new bearing and voila!  No more issues.  I don't know why I didn't do this sooner!  Now, there's still the question of why this only occurred with the Benz and XONO combo and not the Shelter XONO or Benz Tom Evans combo...  :scratch:

Ericus Rex

Re: Just purchased a Benz Ruby Z...and awaiting it's landing!
« Reply #51 on: 3 Apr 2012, 06:17 pm »
So, the underlying mystery still remains: why does this only happen with certain loads, the Xono , and the Benz? Where's the fault?

There are a bunch of things at play here. One of them probably explains why this is happening.

First, consider the circuit hooked up to the preamp. Tuan's body is capacitively coupled to the tonearm: he is one plate, the plastic tonearm lift cover is the insulator, and the tonearm lift and body are the other plate. The tonearm plate is grounded to the preamp ground via the bearing cup and unipivot needle (and ground wiring) when the arm isn't in motion. When the arm is moving, the bad bearing acts as a switch that is opening and closing both randomly and quickly as the metal surfaces chatter against each other. The other capacitor plate (Tuan) is either grounded to the floor or is acting as an antenna -- we don't know which. Either noise from the antenna Tuan, or removal of ground through Tuan, is causing noise to be injected into the ground of the Xono. The rustling characteristic follows the "switch" opening and closing as the metal surfaces chatter.

Next, the tonearm/cartridge circuit connected to the first gain device in the Xono consists of the cartridge's resistance and inductance, the wiring capacitance, the load resistor, the ground, and Tuan. With certain load resistors, the first gain stage amplifies the noise injected into the ground when Tuan holds and moves the tonearm. Why with only certain loads? Yesterday, I had two possible explanations: There's either a resonant circuit formed by these particular component values that's coincidentally tuned to something going on mechanically, or the first gain stage of the Xono is rectifying the high frequency noise from Tuan the antenna when this particular combination of values is added to the circuit.

Another possibility that's come to mind is that there may be a DC offset between ground in the Xono and Tuan the capacitor. Inductive coupling between the preamp's power supply transformer and the ground/chassis could be raising the ground voltage, or the charge on Tuan or whatever he's standing on could be raising the Tuan capacitor plate's voltage. The "switch" in the pivot would then cause the DC voltage to turn on and off rapidly, changing the operation conditions of the first gain stage or just showing up as plain noise. I've seen hundreds of volts from transformer leakage inductance before, which would drop to zero when the transformer body is properly grounded. The amount of current when making the ground connection was miniscule, so this was not an actual fault where the AC or DC grounds were shorted to the chassis.

The only way to know for sure what the actual cause is would be to measure for DC offsets and to scope the signal that's going into the Xono. Unfortunately, trying to measure either of these would change the grounding and loading and stop the noise! At least we now know that Tuan can double as a capacitor or an antenna when needed.

- Eric

I look forward to your regular posts here!    :thumb:

Sonny

Re: Just purchased a Benz Ruby Z...and awaiting it's landing!
« Reply #52 on: 3 Apr 2012, 06:29 pm »
I look forward to your regular posts here!    :thumb:

Eric,

thanks...I can tell you that on Sunday, I had three buddies over and well, we listened to the Z and though it was on its 3-7 hours that day, it sounded damn good!  We listened to a number of things, including "take five" on Classic records 45rpm, Sinatra & Ellington on Reprise, some opera, Sonny Rollins "sound of sonny" on OJC, new Pink Floyd "the wall" reissue and a number of things.  The Z really dug into the vinyl (in a good way) and pulled out details and texture that my 901 didn't do... note that I tried to set them both up as best I could using the same alignment tool and method...

The Z was loaded at 475 ohms and the Shelter 100 ohms.  Cellos and woods had more body and texture to them, transience were fast and clear, and overall, I really like it!  I can't wait for it to break in, but that's hours away.  Also, the Z pulled out either "pre-echo" or "tape loop" on recordings that I didn't noticed before.  It's strange, but it was darn good!

On my JMW arms, I use minimal anti-skate (may be an oxymoron) since there really isn't anti-skate on the VPI arms  :lol:...  But it tracked very well except for a few discs.  I don't know if that's based on anti-skate, which I suspect, but I haven't played with it as it would require me to re-azimuth the set up, which can be a pain. 

The alignment is Lofgren, mounting distance is 258mm, VTF is 1.9g and VTA, well, it was "a** up" as a buddy would say...

More to come!

Berndt

Re: Just purchased a Benz Ruby Z...and awaiting it's landing!
« Reply #53 on: 3 Apr 2012, 07:26 pm »
I think Tuan is a switch, capacitor, and antenna.
Once you start hearing things that make you think something is not right it is a tough path.
Hope my tonearm upgrade isn't another round of  audio Russian roulette.

Berndt

Re: Just purchased a Benz Ruby Z...and awaiting it's landing!
« Reply #54 on: 3 Apr 2012, 07:27 pm »
Tuan is going to party like its 1999 posts :duh:

Sonny

Re: Just purchased a Benz Ruby Z...and awaiting it's landing!
« Reply #55 on: 3 Apr 2012, 07:42 pm »
I think Tuan is a switch, capacitor, and antenna.
Once you start hearing things that make you think something is not right it is a tough path.
Hope my tonearm upgrade isn't another round of  audio Russian roulette.

Bill, UPGRADE???  What upgrade are you doing???

DAM, it's 2000 now! :duh:

Berndt

Re: Just purchased a Benz Ruby Z...and awaiting it's landing!
« Reply #56 on: 3 Apr 2012, 08:28 pm »
Tuan, don't want to get off topic.
But, have a four point on order. Before I move up the cartridge food chain I want to end game my tonearm.

TomS

Re: Just purchased a Benz Ruby Z...and awaiting it's landing!
« Reply #57 on: 3 Apr 2012, 08:29 pm »
Tuan, don't want to get off topic.
But, have a four point on order. Before I move up the cartridge food chain I want to end game my tonearm.
Wow, that should definitely do it. Congrats!

Sonny

Re: Just purchased a Benz Ruby Z...and awaiting it's landing!
« Reply #58 on: 3 Apr 2012, 08:51 pm »
Bill, that's one heck of a tonearm!
Will have to come over for a listen when you are done!
T

Sonny

Re: Just purchased a Benz Ruby Z...and awaiting it's landing!
« Reply #59 on: 25 Apr 2012, 08:26 pm »
Update...
After trying to resolve the mistracking on some of the LPs (mind you these are the 45 RPM LPs as well as LPs I know the Shelter 901 tracks well on, so it's not the LP) by azimuth, VTF and alignment, I've given up and sent it back for a replacement.  Unfortunately, at the time I inquire for a replacement, they had other Ruby Zs in stock, however, when they got the cartridge back, there were none left...so, my money was refunded...and well, it was a good experience, the Z really sounded amazing, but without any in stock, I don't have one to listen to...  :cry:
Anyways, this was at a discount so I won't be able to spend the $4k for one from other dealers.   :duh:

T
« Last Edit: 6 May 2012, 04:05 am by Sonny »