[JohnR]

Glad to hear you're getting there 

[mojave]

I think I figured out that I was making it more complicated than it needs to be.

I can run allocator as a VST plug in, in either Foobar or JRiver.  I am leaning toward JRiver right now, Foobar has a problem where I can only run it once, and then I need to reboot my PC before I can run it again, if I have the VST plug in , and the ASIO plug in installed.  Kind of annoying.

I need to make sure I can route the signals with JRiver, will try that tonight.

I think I could also make this work if I used Reaper with Rearoute.  With Reaper, I can run Allocate as a plug in, or I could run it standalone, and use rearoute to map the ins and outs for Allocate.  The Jriver plug in route is much easier to set up, so if that works I don't need to mess with Reaper.

Randy

You can use the Parametric Equalizer DSP (it should probably have a broader name) to reroute audio using Mix Channels. If you put JRiver in 4 channel mode in Output Format for a two-way speaker, then Allocator should take the stereo signal and send out the four channels properly. If going with a 3-way system, you would want use set Output Format to 7.1. Of course you can use 7.1 for a two-way system, too, and the extra channels with just be blank or can be used for subwoofers.

Once you get this working, I would be interested in you comparing Allocator to directly creating the crossovers within JRiver using its high and low pass filters with various slopes, etc. Another user just designed his crossovers within JRiver while using REW's RTA feature to see the frequency response live as he was changing crossover frequencies and slopes.

[randytsuch]

You can use the Parametric Equalizer DSP (it should probably have a broader name) to reroute audio using Mix Channels. If you put JRiver in 4 channel mode in Output Format for a two-way speaker, then Allocator should take the stereo signal and send out the four channels properly. If going with a 3-way system, you would want use set Output Format to 7.1. Of course you can use 7.1 for a two-way system, too, and the extra channels with just be blank or can be used for subwoofers.

Once you get this working, I would be interested in you comparing Allocator to directly creating the crossovers within JRiver using its high and low pass filters with various slopes, etc. Another user just designed his crossovers within JRiver while using REW's RTA feature to see the frequency response live as he was changing crossover frequencies and slopes.

So I can't figure out how mix channels is going to help me here?

My problem is that with JRiver, I can't output via ASIO to my 828.  If I use any other output type, then I can only output two channels.

I can output multiple channels if I add Reaper into the mix, and run allocator in Reaper, then I get closer.  But, I can't figure out how to configure Allocator and Reaper to output the different information, they all want to output the same stuff, either the full range signal, or a high passed and/or low passed signal.  So, I can modify the signal, to filter the highs or lows, like a cross over, I just can't get both a high pass and a low pass signal to come out.

Frustating part is that I am so close, and its probably something simple from here.  Other thing is I can't join the allocator forum.  You have to send an email to join, and they didn't respond to my email.

Randy

[mojave]

First, I guess you need to figure out why ASIO to your Motu 828 isn't working. In Tools > Options > Audio did you set Output Mode to ASIO and then in Output Mode Settings did you select the Motu ASIO Driver? I've used seven different soundcards that supported ASIO and haven't had any issues. I'm currently using a Steinberg UR824 (USB) and MR816x (firewire).

I downloaded the demo of Allocator and had no trouble using it for a two to four way system. I even used it for a 2.1 setup. Here is what I did:

1.  Load the VST in in JRiver's DSP Studio
2.  Set Output Format to 7.1 channels in the DSP Studio and make sure Output Format is checkmarked.
2.  Clicked Options in the upper right of Allocator and selected "Process Independently of Internal Volume." Note: I use internal volume in JRiver.
3.  Checked Allocator so that it is active.
4.  Clicked "Stream" in Allocator to route audio through it.
5.  Change low and high pass filters for low, mid, etc.
6.  Moved Parametric Equalizer below Allocator and added Order Channels. I moved channels as necessary to match my connections.
7.  When I did the 2.1 setup, I added Mix Channels to Parametric EQ and added the center to the subwoofer. This way the sub was getting the bass from both left and right.
8.  I used separate speakers for each channel to verify everything was working since I'm not actually using active crossovers except for the sub.

Reaper wasn't necessary since JRiver routes the two channels into Allocator and Allocator routes the 8 channels (or whatever you choose) back out to JRiver. To reorganize or move channels you can then use Order Channels and Mix Channels.

One thing to realize with JRiver is that when you set 7.1 as the Output Format it labels the channels as Left, Right, Center, Sub, Rear Left, Rear Right, Surround Left, Surround Right. These correspond to channels 1-8. For the two way setup I used low and mid 1 in Allocator. These routed as low left to Left, Low right to Right, Mid 1 left to Center, and Mid 1 right to Subwoofer. You can use Order Channels to drag the Center up to after the Left so that the left speakers uses channels 1 & 2 and the right speaker uses channels 3 & 4.

My demo only lasted 20 minutes so I couldn't verify the outputs after I typed them. I restarted JRiver and the demo still wouldn't work. Maybe I need to restart my computer to continue using it.

[randytsuch]

First, I guess you need to figure out why ASIO to your Motu 828 isn't working.

First let me say I really appreciate your long and detailed response.  I know it takes a while to compose a response like that.

As far as figuring out the ASIO problem, I wish I could.  I have installed it as you describe, and I get nothing at my 828 (based on LED indication, and jack output) when I have ASIO selected.  If I change Output mode to Directsound or Waveout, works fine, but just for 2 channels.

I may try the ASIO4all driver, instead of the MOTU driver, and see if I can run the MOTU like that. 

I only get to work on it at home at night, when I can plug into the 828, and tonight I'm busy, but will spend some more time on it this weekend, and am crossing my fingers.

Randy

[mojave]

The ASIO4all driver is just a wrapper on kernel streaming. You could also try kernel streaming in JRiver and see if that works.

When using DirectSound, you have to make sure you configure the audio channels in the Windows Control Panel to 7.1 surround with fullrange selected for the speakers.

Many pro audio devices do not write a multi-channel driver for Windows for use with DirectSound. For example, my Steinberg UR824 will only access the first stereo output when using DirectSound. Usually ASIO is the only method that will access all channels.

Did you check the volume control on the Motu to make sure it isn't turned down or muted?

[JDUBS]

Randy, yes, definitely keep working on getting the motu ASIO driver working.  I had a motu before (not your version) and got ASIO to work ok.

It'll make this project much easier.  Maybe shoot the guys at motu a note.

-Jim

[randytsuch]

On Friday, I uninstalled JRiver, Reaper, and Allocate.  I reinstalled, and put some settings I changed back to recommended, and it started working.   

Still not really sure why, I will try playing with the settings when I get a chance.

For now, I was able to get outputs on 6 channels of the Motu, and I think I know where the other two are, but did not go back to check them yet.

My only real issue is I can't control volume through Jriver when I use the Asio drivers.  I was going to try a few things when I can.

But, I think I have this part of the project pretty much under control, I can use Allocate running in Jriver to create a SW crossover, using my Motu 828 MKII as the DAC.

I need to work on the rest of the setup, the tube amp I have been using for this is now sick, and I am trying to fix it.  If I can't fix the tube amp, I may use a chip amp of the amp channels, and I have another amp for the rest.

Randy

[JDUBS]

Nice going, Randy!

-Jim

On Friday, I uninstalled JRiver, Reaper, and Allocate.  I reinstalled, and put some settings I changed back to recommended, and it started working.   

Still not really sure why, I will try playing with the settings when I get a chance.

For now, I was able to get outputs on 6 channels of the Motu, and I think I know where the other two are, but did not go back to check them yet.

My only real issue is I can't control volume through Jriver when I use the Asio drivers.  I was going to try a few things when I can.

But, I think I have this part of the project pretty much under control, I can use Allocate running in Jriver to create a SW crossover, using my Motu 828 MKII as the DAC.

I need to work on the rest of the setup, the tube amp I have been using for this is now sick, and I am trying to fix it.  If I can't fix the tube amp, I may use a chip amp of the amp channels, and I have another amp for the rest.

Randy

[randytsuch]

I also posted a question on the Allocator forum, to ask for help setting up Reaper to run with Allocator, and the question was answered so I should be able to get that to work, if I wanted to.

Because I'm cheap, I would probably do one of the following:
1.  use Foobar or winamp to feed Reaper running allocator as a plug in.
2.  use Jriver with allocator as a plug in

I already bought allocator, so it comes down to buying either jriver, or reaper.  I can use the "discounted license" for reaper, they are about the same cost.

Anybody have a reason to go one way, versus the other?
I am leaning towards Jriver because it supports convolution, where I could import correction filters. 

I would consider foobar with reaper, but I have a problem where if I shut down foobar, I have to restart my PC to restart foobar, and that is annoying.

Randy

[mojave]

On Friday, I uninstalled JRiver, Reaper, and Allocate.  I reinstalled, and put some settings I changed back to recommended, and it started working.   

Still not really sure why, I will try playing with the settings when I get a chance.

For now, I was able to get outputs on 6 channels of the Motu, and I think I know where the other two are, but did not go back to check them yet.

My only real issue is I can't control volume through Jriver when I use the Asio drivers.  I was going to try a few things when I can.

But, I think I have this part of the project pretty much under control, I can use Allocate running in Jriver to create a SW crossover, using my Motu 828 MKII as the DAC.

I need to work on the rest of the setup, the tube amp I have been using for this is now sick, and I am trying to fix it.  If I can't fix the tube amp, I may use a chip amp of the amp channels, and I have another amp for the rest.

Randy

I'm glad you got it working. To control volume in JRiver you need to set it to internal volume control. Click on the speaker icon to the left of the volume control for the options. You can also select volume protection. When you use internal volume, make sure you set the Allocator plugin to "Process Independently of Internal Volume" as I mentioned above. JRiver also has clip protection so that if you do something with your Allocator filters that uses too much headroom you won't damage your speakers.

Reaper doesn't give you the nice database system with secure ripping and advanced tagging like JRiver offers. Reaper is designed for use as a digital audio workstation and isn't that user friendly for playback of movies and music. JRiver is more than just playback - it is a way to manage your library. You can also control it with an android phone or stream to your computer at work or elsewhere.

I'm still curious how the crossovers in JRiver sound vs Allocator. If you ever get the time it would be an interesting comparision.

[JDUBS]

Randy, I would 100% go with JRiver.  Talk about an awesome and ever-evolving program.  Once they latch on to a feature idea they seem to make it a reality VERY quickly.  Convolution is a perfect example of this.

-Jim

I also posted a question on the Allocator forum, to ask for help setting up Reaper to run with Allocator, and the question was answered so I should be able to get that to work, if I wanted to.

Because I'm cheap, I would probably do one of the following:
1.  use Foobar or winamp to feed Reaper running allocator as a plug in.
2.  use Jriver with allocator as a plug in

I already bought allocator, so it comes down to buying either jriver, or reaper.  I can use the "discounted license" for reaper, they are about the same cost.

Anybody have a reason to go one way, versus the other?
I am leaning towards Jriver because it supports convolution, where I could import correction filters. 

I would consider foobar with reaper, but I have a problem where if I shut down foobar, I have to restart my PC to restart foobar, and that is annoying.

Randy

[dwk]

I set my active PC xover system up using Reaper, and it worked well - Reaper is an amazingly powerful platform for audio experimentation and a real bargain at the discounted price. My main beef is that while the ReRoute virtual ASIO driver works well, having to get Reaper up and running and then connect the media player into it always seemed a bit of pain.

Having said that, I can't imagine starting a system now and going with anything but JRiver. The fact that it handles both audio and video, will figure out latency compensation, has both IIR and FIR capability and has what seems to be a viable tablet remote interface make it the clear choice IMHO.
 I just need to find a small/silent platform that either has a firewire port or a pci slot to take my firewire card so I can use it with my Steinberg MR816. I guess a Mac Mini w/ Boot camp will do it, but I'm hoping for a cheaper approach.

[randytsuch]

I set my active PC xover system up using Reaper, and it worked well - Reaper is an amazingly powerful platform for audio experimentation and a real bargain at the discounted price. My main beef is that while the ReRoute virtual ASIO driver works well, having to get Reaper up and running and then connect the media player into it always seemed a bit of pain.

Having said that, I can't imagine starting a system now and going with anything but JRiver. The fact that it handles both audio and video, will figure out latency compensation, has both IIR and FIR capability and has what seems to be a viable tablet remote interface make it the clear choice IMHO.
 I just need to find a small/silent platform that either has a firewire port or a pci slot to take my firewire card so I can use it with my Steinberg MR816. I guess a Mac Mini w/ Boot camp will do it, but I'm hoping for a cheaper approach.

My laptop has a express card adapter slot (EC).  Bought a dynex EC to firewire card fairly cheaply, and I was good to go.

Otherwise, you can build a small silent PC fairly cheaply these days, since you don't need much horsepower just for this.  One thing is it is easier to build a silent PC if it's not small, small makes it harder to get heat out.

BTW, that's a good point about having to run Reaper everytime I would want music, just having to call up Jriver will be easier.

Randy

[JDUBS]

dwk, are you convolving?  If not, you don't need much horsepower at all.  I'm using one of these:

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/motherboards/desktop-motherboards/desktop-board-dn2800mt.html

in an M300 enclosure:

http://www.mini-box.com/M350-universal-mini-itx-enclosure. 

The Intel board has a PCIe slot and riser to use a PCIe card...which I am doing - a firewire card, which outputs to a Mytek DAC.

Its incredibly tiny, throws off like no heat and is powered via a 12v external supply (lots of options there).

-Jim

I set my active PC xover system up using Reaper, and it worked well - Reaper is an amazingly powerful platform for audio experimentation and a real bargain at the discounted price. My main beef is that while the ReRoute virtual ASIO driver works well, having to get Reaper up and running and then connect the media player into it always seemed a bit of pain.

Having said that, I can't imagine starting a system now and going with anything but JRiver. The fact that it handles both audio and video, will figure out latency compensation, has both IIR and FIR capability and has what seems to be a viable tablet remote interface make it the clear choice IMHO.
 I just need to find a small/silent platform that either has a firewire port or a pci slot to take my firewire card so I can use it with my Steinberg MR816. I guess a Mac Mini w/ Boot camp will do it, but I'm hoping for a cheaper approach.

dwk, are you convolving?  If not, you don't need much horsepower at all.  I'm using one of these:

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/motherboards/desktop-motherboards/desktop-board-dn2800mt.html

in an M300 enclosure:

http://www.mini-box.com/M350-universal-mini-itx-enclosure. 

The Intel board has a PCIe slot and riser to use a PCIe card...which I am doing - a firewire card, which outputs to a Mytek DAC.

Its incredibly tiny, throws off like no heat and is powered via a 12v external supply (lots of options there).

-Jim

[randytsuch]

Looks like a change of plans is in order.

On the allocator forum, in response to a post where I said I was going to use JRiver (glad I made that post), the forum mod (and I think author of Allocator) said that JRiver doesn't save Allocator settings.

So, I opened JRiver, made some changes in Allocator, and "saved" the settings to a preset.

Closed JRiver, and then reopened the Allocator page.  My settings were gone, and I could not reload them either.  As far as I could tell, saving and reloading settings does nothing, and it doesn't remember any changes made.

This makes JRiver completely unacceptable for hosting Allocator, unless someone can point me to something I am doing wrong here?

Otherwise, I am most likely going to try using winamp to Reaper/Allocator.

Randy

[JDUBS]

Randy, I had not heard this before but think that you should post it over at the JRiver forums.  They are super quick to respond and will say if its a simple fix or if its something that will be addressed in the longer term, for the product.

-Jim

Looks like a change of plans is in order.

On the allocator forum, in response to a post where I said I was going to use JRiver (glad I made that post), the forum mod (and I think author of Allocator) said that JRiver doesn't save Allocator settings.

So, I opened JRiver, made some changes in Allocator, and "saved" the settings to a preset.

Closed JRiver, and then reopened the Allocator page.  My settings were gone, and I could not reload them either.  As far as I could tell, saving and reloading settings does nothing, and it doesn't remember any changes made.

This makes JRiver completely unacceptable for hosting Allocator, unless someone can point me to something I am doing wrong here?

Otherwise, I am most likely going to try using winamp to Reaper/Allocator.

Randy

[randytsuch]

Randy, I had not heard this before but think that you should post it over at the JRiver forums.  They are super quick to respond and will say if its a simple fix or if its something that will be addressed in the longer term, for the product.

-Jim

Right after I posted this, I posted a question in the JRiver forum, so I'll see what they say over there.

Randy

[JDUBS]

Randy, did you also try to do the crossovers in the JRiver MC software itself?  I know it can do high pass / low pass at 12/24db.  There is talk of adding steeper slopes, too:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=71804.0

-Jim

[randytsuch]

Randy, did you also try to do the crossovers in the JRiver MC software itself?  I know it can do high pass / low pass at 12/24db.  There is talk of adding steeper slopes, too:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=71804.0

-Jim

So when I asked about my problem at the jriver forum, that was basically the answer, to use the built in crossover in jriver.
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=71895.0

I have not played much with Allocator yet, but it has a lot more functions than what JRiver can do.  JRiver lets you from select 4 slopes, and pick the frequency.

Allocator has more flexibility to shape the output response.  As I said at Jriver, it's hard to give up a feature you already have, even if you're not using it now.

So for now, I will most likely look at options other than JRiver for my project.

Randy