[kevin360]

I should explain my 'shower' comment. I read the new posts in this thread (among other things) while eating my breakfast. After which, I posted reply #48 and then headed to the shower – and that's when it hit me, “Hey, I wonder what the measurable voltage differential is between each side of the fuse when it's being challenged?” That, I thought, might be meaningful. Even more interesting might be to record the signal on each side of the fuse and compare the waveforms, except that I haven't a means of doing that.

In the early '80s, I came 'that close' to working for BBN (Bolt, Barenek and Newman). A week long interview process narrowed it down to two of us – the single guy got the job (dammit). At the time, I would just have been supporting their butterfly processing (massively parallel) computers, but who knows?

Anyway, I absolutely believe the statement that our perception adapts as suggested – makes evolutionary sense (if I am permitted to reference that 'evil' theory). To make matters worse, our 'audio' memory is pretty much crap. Does that mean immediate impressions are our most valid? Well, not when we realize that our brains get a (dopaminergic) charge out of change (which explains my two way improvement experience). Perception is something of an intractable mess. I hope everyone else is as suspicious of my perception based comments as I am*.

My whole premise regarding the impact of a fuse may very well be responsible for the improvement I perceive without one. We're all human, even those of us who are a 'little' weird.

---

*This isn't to say that I place no stock in perceived differences. I just believe that they 'need' to be rigorously tested - which can be somewhat challenging. At the end of the day, all that matters is that we enjoy listening to music with our rigs. That mission was accomplished by simply setting up what Magnepan sent me. The rest is just icing on the cake (and having a bit of fun). 

[MaggiesAndCats]

I read somewhere that the problem with the Hi Fi Tuning fuses is that they don't blow when they're supposed to! Well, at that price, they'd better not. I don't know if this is accurate, or just another Internet rumor.

The HiFi Tuning fuses in both power amps in my biamp setup blew.  Or perhaps I only perceived they did because I expected them to...   

[josh358]

I think they should market them as hearing protectors, because at $75 a pop you won't dare listen above a whisper.

[josh358]

I should explain my 'shower' comment. I read the new posts in this thread (among other things) while eating my breakfast. After which, I posted reply #48 and then headed to the shower – and that's when it hit me, “Hey, I wonder what the measurable voltage differential is between each side of the fuse when it's being challenged?” That, I thought, might be meaningful. Even more interesting might be to record the signal on each side of the fuse and compare the waveforms, except that I haven't a means of doing that.

In the early '80s, I came 'that close' to working for BBN (Bolt, Barenek and Newman). A week long interview process narrowed it down to two of us – the single guy got the job (dammit). At the time, I would just have been supporting their butterfly processing (massively parallel) computers, but who knows?

Anyway, I absolutely believe the statement that our perception adapts as suggested – makes evolutionary sense (if I am permitted to reference that 'evil' theory). To make matters worse, our 'audio' memory is pretty much crap. Does that mean immediate impressions are our most valid? Well, not when we realize that our brains get a (dopaminergic) charge out of change (which explains my two way improvement experience). Perception is something of an intractable mess. I hope everyone else is as suspicious of my perception based comments as I am*.

My whole premise regarding the impact of a fuse may very well be responsible for the improvement I perceive without one. We're all human, even those of us who are a 'little' weird.

---

*This isn't to say that I place no stock in perceived differences. I just believe that they 'need' to be rigorously tested - which can be somewhat challenging. At the end of the day, all that matters is that we enjoy listening to music with our rigs. That mission was accomplished by simply setting up what Magnepan sent me. The rest is just icing on the cake (and having a bit of fun).

I've come to believe that you have to evaluate different sonic attributes in different ways. On one hand, adaptation can occur quickly and also over a period of several days (an old result). On the other, there are some forms of distortion that I've found become apparently only after you've grown intimately familiar with a piece of gear. My working hypothesis is that the brain is better at filtering out some forms of distortion than others. Many response errors, for example, can be corrected in real time, as we move our heads and the HRTF and room acoustics change.

[MaggiesAndCats]

I think they should market them as hearing protectors, because at $75 a pop you won't dare listen above a whisper.

Hmmm...  I had a snappy response all typed in, based on my actual experience, but this is a planar speaker circle so I'll let the fuse furor blow over.  Get it?  Fuses...  Blow....   Ahhh, I'm wasting all of my good material    Maybe someday when I'm spoiling for a fight I'll play Devil's Advocate, but I don't want our moderator to make me sit in the corner.  Maybe there's a good snake oil forum out there...

[kevin360]

Steve,

Before I get all serious, let me say, "Good one!"

Somehow, I doubt you would type anything that would draw the ire of our moderator. Your having an opinion which seems contrary to a few of us in this discussion should certainly not be a problem. Also, I have no doubt that your perceived improvement is 'real' (qualified as an honest experience). Finally, if a forum cannot host a spirited debate, then what good is it?

I started the 'they don't blow' train of thought in this thread. I repeated what was reported by an individual I initially assumed was a technician, but later sussed is a bit more than that (he's a manufacturer) – and I have to look at his comments in a different light now (could be a conflict of interest). At any rate, I did qualify my statement with “if true”. If true, his comments reveal a mechanism for an improvement that makes a hell of a lot of sense – if my experience (which needs further testing) is real.

Please note that I don't just question what others report, but I also question my own experience. The nature of perception opens the door to doubt – not intended as an insult to anyone, nor is it intended as a criticism of human perception. It's just the way it is, and I'd bet the farm it's the reason why Dave prefers not to engage in discussions about perception – he likes quantifications for a damn good reason.

I am interested in your experience and you've sparked my curiosity about the fuses which blew in your amps. What precipitated their opening and did they protect your amps from damage? Roger didn't suggest that they absolutely wouldn't blow, only that the ones in an amp he serviced failed to break (and, hence, failed to protect the circuitry they were installed to safeguard).

Roger's thread about the Tuning fuses has continued and questionable ratings in both directions have been reported. It would bother me that they aren't UL/CE/CSA qualified – actually, they aren't qualified by any agency. By comparison, LittelFuse products are qualified by more than ten agencies, and they provide graphs for the behavior of their fuses.

I hope you don't read any of the foregoing as an insult. I mean nothing of the sort. Nor should anyone else insult your intelligence. I'm merely expressing my concerns and preferences. I also theorized a bit, which is something I have a hard time not doing. I don't see any reason to shy away from further discussion on this topic. Let's lay it all on the table so others, such as Hasse, can make a more informed decision. That's the main reason why we're here (and I certainly don't think my opinion should be read as gospel by anyone).

Thanks for maintaining your sense of humor.

[josh358]

Hmmm...  I had a snappy response all typed in, based on my actual experience, but this is a planar speaker circle so I'll let the fuse furor blow over.  Get it?  Fuses...  Blow....   Ahhh, I'm wasting all of my good material    Maybe someday when I'm spoiling for a fight I'll play Devil's Advocate, but I don't want our moderator to make me sit in the corner.  Maybe there's a good snake oil forum out there...

LOL, well, for whatever it's worth, that wasn't intended as a statement one way or the other about their efficacy. If I knew that they improved the sound and blew when they were supposed to, I'd go for a pair myself, it seems a small enough investment, at least for those of us who no longer play their speakers at fuse-blowing levels. But I'm very far away from even being able to try the bypass tweak and waiting on Kevin's blind test.

Another issue that hasn't been raised -- fuses apparently don't model diaphragm heating very well. An electronic approach could do a much better job, offering virtually instantaneous protection when its necessary.

My favorite bad fuse joke is still the classified ad that appeared in Stereophile in the early days -- "Used Fuses, Slightly Blown."



 

[SteveFord]

The only thing that I ask is no personal attacks and don't beat up on other sites, dealers, that kind of thing.
Don't say anything that you wouldn't say to someone's face and pretend that the other person is twice your size and is carrying a baseball bat with an 8" nail sticking through the business end.
You can make as many bad jokes as you want, I don't care about that.
This site seems to have a PG-13 rating so you should probably keep things more or less clean and nudes means amps with their tops off (hubba hubba).

[MaggiesAndCats]

What precipitated their opening and did they protect your amps from damage?

The amp fuses opened on power up - both of them.  Curiously, they opened within a week or so of each other.  I put the original fuses back in "temporarily" and haven't put new fuses back in yet.  No damage to any equipment.  {I can't say that I immediately said "wow those old fuses really DID suck", so maybe changing the fuses did scrape off some crud from the fuse holders.}  My cynical side would say they have quality control issues.   BTW, I've done a lot of work with UL.  Talk about quality control issues...  CE is self (submitter/manufacturer) regulating.  Not impressed.

As my previous post noted, I did my tweeter fuses first to determine if I could discern any effect.  I "heard" a positive effect - spin it any way you want - and proceeded to replace the other speaker fuses and all of my other components one at a time.  My expectation bias after the first experiment would have been to "hear" (perhaps preceive is a better word for the doubters) an improvement in everything.  Such was not the case.  Apparently my bias compass needs calibration.

I don't know where the $75 price for these fuses comes from, but a quick search showed prices in the range of $30 - $60 depending on size and rating.  I happened to buy mine during a sale by the distributor and got another 20% off.  Worth the experiment.

I understand and accept expectation bias as a fact, but see it as a slippery slope where anything can be dismissed unless there are objective tests to establish a result with certainty.  However, if a preponderance of people try something and report a consistent result I tend to accept that result as something I can trust.  Yes, yes, that feeds into an expectation bias, etc., etc...  It's just a dog chasing it's tail to me.  However, my perceptions are the final arbiter for me.  I refrain (most of time) from challenging peoples pseudo-science as it just isn't productive for the most part.  There has been a *ship* load on the subject of audiophile fuses, including here.  IMHO, of course...

[kevin360]

It's not a quality control issue. It's simply a design/selection issue. It's something of a one-size-fits-all product – one can select large or small, the amperage and a plating material. No other specifications are given and no other categories exist. From an engineering standpoint, that's grossly insufficient. This is why Littelfuse offers so many products. There are about ten critical parameters for a fuse.

The fuses in your amps blew because the surge withstand capacity (perhaps, simply the melting integral) was meaningfully different from the fuses selected for the task. They simply reacted too early, resulting in a nuisance open. Since your amps have never blown the stock fuses (and the upgraded fuses blew at different times), there can be no other explanation.

Actually, 'perceive' is the better word because that is what we do. We're conscious beings – with all of the powers and foibles that accompany that gift of our neurology. Illusions of perception do not illuminate our failings, rather the rules our brains use to construct what we perceive. What we perceive is a product of more than the raw sensory data. Not one of us is immune, but this does not imply that we are hopelessly lead around by our expectations. Be careful not to argue by reductio ad absurdum. It's merely something of which we should be aware, which you seem to be (good on you).

I'm on your side with respect to the impact of the stock fuses on the sound of the tweeters (but that should apply to any fuse with the same parameters), although I have yet to prove it to myself more completely. The questionable operational parameters (questionable because they are unknown quantities) could well put us on equal footing – your tuning fuse could behave much like my fuseless wiring, IIF the stock fuse gets squirrelly when pushed while the tuning fuse doesn't (because it isn't teetering on the edge of melting). Unfortunately, our setups could have more in common – namely that neither of us is actually protecting our tweeters.

Your final arbiter is the only one that counts and I have no wish to challenge it. As I mentioned previously, I only wish to state my position as clearly as I can – for whatever it may be worth to anyone who reads these threads.

If you want some more target practice, here's a more complete list of the agency approvals for Littelfuse products:

UL (Underwriters Laboratories Inc.)
CSA (Canadian Standards Association)
IEC (International Electrotechnical Committee)
Telcordia
Committee TR-41 of TIA (User Premises Telecommunications Requirements)
CENELEC (Comitee Europe de Normalisation Electrotechnique)
METI (Ministry of Economy Trade and Industry)
MITI (Ministry of International Trade and Industry)
NSAI (National Standards Authority of Ireland)
MIL-PRF-15160 and MIL-PRF-23419
MIL-PRF-19207
DESC Drawing #87108
FEDERAL SPECIFICATION W-F-1814

The manufacturer of the HiFi Tuning fuses has not submitted the products for certification. Inquiring minds want to know: why not? The manufacturer also takes a naive approach to fuse requirements. Fuses are specified by more than package and a current rating. That much is not opinion.

[MaggiesAndCats]

Please understand that I have no interest in defending HiFi-Tuning and their products.  I don't care at all whether any one uses them.  I gave my actual experience with the fuses to the OP.  Which, I may add, no one else has done...   

However, in the interest of discourse and intellectual stimulation (mine, not yours, as I have a more limited intellect), as the Black Knight would say - Have At You!    

As many people have said when asked questions about Magnepan products, if you want to know, contact them.  Maybe they have their own Wendell  who would be more than happy to respond to inquiring minds.

As for the comparison between Littelfuse and HFT, while they both make fuses their business plan and target market couldn't be more different.  All of those agency listings cost money.  That money is well worth it for Littelfuse due to their much broader target market and customer requirements.  HFT, not so much.  Again, if you want to know their fuse characteristics, ask them.  Just because they aren't published doesn't mean they don't exist.  I would posit that most audiophiles do choose their fuses by size and voltage and current rating - and peer recommendation.

Perception bias, while interesting, fits in the whole navel gazing area of our mental/physical interaction with our environment.  I don't look at the deep red color of my bottle du jour and think about how colors are merely the brains' interpretation of the electrical signals from the rods and cones.  It's something I ponder now and then but only in terms of how majestic our bodies really are.  Bias, in terms of brand recognition and advertising, is overwhelming at times but can be controlled with effort.  Any new planar speaker is greeted with "Is it as good as a Maggie (Apogee, ML, etc.)".  Bias in terms of our current discussion likely can't be controlled.  What I object to is using bias perception as an argument against something you haven't heard or tried.  It can't happen because it can't be explained doesn't strike me as a rational argument.

Regards,

Steve

[Davey]

Fellas,

It doesn't make much sense to go 'round and 'round on these "special" fuses unless someone is going to actually test them for failure in an objective fashion.

I'm afraid installing them into an audio system and listening is not "actual experience" when it comes to fuse performance.  There are defined parameters....most of which are not tested with subjective evaluation.

Cheers,

Dave.

[josh358]

Steve,

I can't speak for anybody else, but when I refer to expectation bias I'm not making an argument *against* something making a sonic improvement. The fact that our perceptions are skewed doesn't mean they're always skewed, or that it always makes a difference if they are.

But, since expectation bias is real and can't be overcome by dint of will (I do disagree with you on that point -- the research on that is quite solid, including research done specifically on audio equipment), I think blind tests are helpful, and almost mandatory for a manufacturer designing to a budget.

So when someone says they hear something online, my attitude is generally one of curiosity rather than assurance. That's not an insult to anyone, it's the same attitude I have to my own observations. I always try to find confirmation for my own observations -- another observer, a review of the same piece of gear, etc. Nine times out of ten, I find that I was right, but that tenth time, that my own expectation bias got in the way.

BTW, Wendell and Mark Winey had just this issue with the fuse bypass. Mark said it made a difference in the clarity of his 3.7's, not a huge one, but a difference. Wendell asked whether he'd done a blind test, and Mark said no. So it's essentially the same issue. Just trying it is fine at the preliminary experimental phase or for Mark's personal enjoyment, but if they were considering making a change to a commercial speaker, they would do a blind test first, because they'd want to be absolutely sure.

[kevin360]

Steve,

Josh pretty well stated my position on the bias issue – and I'm fairly certain that I haven't used it as an argument against anything (only as a reason to be cautious). I did as you suggested; I sent an inquiry regarding a few unpublished metrics. In the email, I honestly stated that I'm considering buying some. If I receive a satisfactory reply, I will purchase four of them – two to try on my ribbons (can't be more dangerous than my current fuses ), one to physically destroy (surgically) and another to challenge electrically (while monitoring the current through the fuse – of course, one to destroy in this manner is far too few for meaningful analysis).

Maybe, I'll buy Davey a pair as well. What the hell? I'm an incurably curious individual, but I can't and won't try every damn thing under the sun (as someone who definitely sells snake oil believes one should (I won't name names, but I'll bet you can guess who (I mean, haven't these guys who apply quantum mechanics at the wrong scale ever seen Feynman's neat little equation (Plank's Constant rescues us from the weirdness (sorry for rambling))))). It's not really about money either – I'm certainly not rich, but I've been a little free with money lately (and it's been fun, but I have to slow down or I'll end up working a full time job again). In this case, I am keen to improve the protection hardware for my ribbons – currently doing without.

On a personal note, I apologize if you found any of what I typed objectionable. I have no wish to offend anyone (except for the individual referenced in the last paragraph - hint: not a doctor, but the initials MD are pertinent). I enjoy reasoned arguments and I think they can be useful. I think you've provided an honest opinion – one which issues from your own experience. My intent has been nothing more than to express my own view and the reasoning which supports it. If my logic is faulty, I am all too pleased to be corrected.

My comments about Littelfuse weren't intended to trigger the inference that I don't think anyone else knows how to design a fuse. The only point I wished to make was that a fuse which operates as a proper safety device does so because of more parameters than are available with the HFTs. Regardless of the specifications of a Large, Fast, HFT Supreme 2.5A fuse, that one fuse is not suited to all applications. That's an engineering fact, not a debatable opinion.

You're a nice guy and I like you. I have no problem with your comments in this thread. I wish no quarrel. You're right though; this is something of a dead horse, even if it was fun beating for a while. I'll stop now.

Peace

[MaggiesAndCats]

Friends, Audiophiles, Countrymen...  Kevin!!  You don't like Mogen David!!  Sorry, my sense of humor again.   

I don't mean to insult anyone either.  Well, like you, maybe one person on AC.  Said person probably don't know sh*t about cookin' and is arrogant lookin'.     My GF is working on taming my anger management issues, but they're pretty tame to start with.  Besides, justified anger is a good thing in my book.  (A bit of Crown Royal Cask No. 16 is helping at the moment as I wind down from playing a gig.)  My somewhat spirited comment in the last paragraph was not directed at you, Josh, Dave, etc.  My words don't always convey my thoughts as well as I would like.  If you were all in the Central NY area I'd invite you over for refreshments and semi-critical listening when my system is up and running again.

I found a bit of propaganda on the HFT site you might find interesting:  http://www.hifi-tuning.com/pdf/wlfr.eng.pdf.  It's called "World's Largest Fuse Measurements Report".  That title alone is worth a salute!  I looked up the company that did the measurements and they are quite fascinating as well.  Damn this Internet!  Actually, now I'm thinking about taking my dead HFT fuses to work and see if I can get them dissected.

Josh - Again, my words didn't convey my thoughts as well as I would have liked.  I agree that perception bias, as referenced in our discussion, cannot be defeated.  I don't look for confirmation of my observations, as least when it comes to the few pieces of audio equipment I have heard.  I generally listen alone, have my own goals for music reproduction, etc.  I am, for the most part, quite pleased with my modest system, although I am trying get going on a Frankenpan project that keeps evolving in my head.

Ah, enough of this dead horse beating.  Time to go watch some old Twilight Zone episodes, or maybe Father of the Pride.

 

[kevin360]

Ahhh, do tell. Pray thee, what is thine intent? (Can you give us a rough idea?)

As someone who embarked on a number of projects with his MMGs, let me offer a bit of encouragement. If you have a project burning in your head, let it out. It's a lot of fun. I'm itching for Rev. 4 of my evolving concept. This time, I want to be more patient (because I'm not a particularly experienced woodworker, blah, blah, blah) and tackle (well, hopefully) a more involved design. I want to do it because it's fun and satisfying. Does that sound familiar? If so, then you owe it to yourself. I don't mean to sound morbid, but it was a bucket list thing for me.

Back from a gig, eh? It's been a long, long time since I could say that. It's something of a regret. What do you play (I'm sure I've read it before but I don't remember)? Do you ever have a laugh at the comment some make regarding musicians and sound quality (musicians don't care and apparently can't hear very well, etc.)?

I'm not sure what comprises your modest system, but I've spent a ton of money proving to myself that one doesn't have to spend a ton of money – a modest system can deliver as much listening pleasure as a ridiculously expensive one (but then, maybe former musicians can't hear worth a crap either). For instance, I have an Acurus A200 that was $1,000 new, a Pass X350 that was an order of magnitude more expensive and a VAC Phi 300.1 that was twice the cost of the Pass – a fairly broad and neatly graduated scale (albeit somewhat spread across time, which could influence the comparative costs). The honest truth is that the difference in sound between each amp is not dramatic. I'm dead certain that I could pick each one out of the lineup in a blind test, but that's a vacuous assertion as it would be practically impossible for me to test. More importantly, I'm also certain that I could spend many thoroughly enjoyable hours listening to music using any one of them.

There's not a thing wrong with modest. In fact, I think we can easily find ourselves trapped in an ever escalating series of fund depleting improvements for which we never have difficulty finding justification. Don't read any of this as an expression of regret – I don't regret what I've spent (not one little jot), but I don't mind admitting that it was not necessary. The difference in the sound of a number of systems I could assemble pales in comparison to the differences between recordings.

I listened to three discs last night. The first two were SHM SACDs (got hooked on placing Acoustic Sounds orders for a while) of 'Innervisions' (Hey RClark, it's a new month!) followed by 'Dire Straights'. As much as I love both of those recordings (for many reasons), what I played next just exploded my room. Omnia's 'Pagan Folk' simply sounds amazing. It doesn't hurt that I really enjoy that genre (when done well). I had to replay a couple of tracks – my vocabulary is in want for words to express the experience.

You know; that's what it's all about (another enchanting night of listening to music).

(I listen alone as well. I suppose most of us do. What's weird is that I never feel alone when I'm listening.)

[SteveFord]

That last bit made me think of my wife as she was surprised to see me with my eyes closed just "listening to music" - that's the only thing I was doing.

I explained that I can't very well go see these performers live any more (many of them are dead or otherwise inconvenienced) so this was the next best thing it made sense to her.  I can't go see them but I can bring them to me.

If I try to listen to music with my wife she'll attempt to talk over it like it's background noise from a television.
That's the reason I have three systems: two good ones (for me to listen to) and a solid state one for the Mrs. to treat as background noise.

[josh358]

Josh - Again, my words didn't convey my thoughts as well as I would have liked.  I agree that perception bias, as referenced in our discussion, cannot be defeated.  I don't look for confirmation of my observations, as least when it comes to the few pieces of audio equipment I have heard.  I generally listen alone, have my own goals for music reproduction, etc.  I am, for the most part, quite pleased with my modest system, although I am trying get going on a Frankenpan project that keeps evolving in my head.

Ah, enough of this dead horse beating.  Time to go watch some old Twilight Zone episodes, or maybe Father of the Pride.

 

No problem, just didn't want to think that you might be thinking I was questioning your judgment and be upset. It can be hard to express the difference between that and "just wondering" on the Internet. Whereas in real life it's easy, as when Wendell asked Mark whether he'd doen a blind test. (Mark is just as insistent on blind testing when something goes into a product.)

[Davey]

That "World's Largest Fuse Measurements Report" is pretty interesting. 

Much data on resistance and voltage drop, but not a single piece of data on the MOST important aspect of any fuse.....the blowing (opening) characteristics. 

Beware.

Cheers,

Dave.

[curbfeeler]

One of the possibilities that comes to mind is that the plating on the fuse or holder was dirty or corroded. This will lead to a subtle increase in distortion and then someone will put in a new fuse or even change its orientation and notice a difference, and conclude that it's a consequence of the new or reversed fuse when in fact, it's more like working a scratchy pot or switch back and forth to clean it.

Well, I cleaned the fuse holders and fuse caps with DeoxIT and treated them with DeoxIT Gold, so that would seem to obviate the contribution from a fouled contact. I don't doubt there are better fuse holders than those used by Magnepan and many other manufacturers on high-end audio gear.