[Freo-1]

Let me add my .02 for the Pass Labs X2.5.

One of the best preamps I've ever heard, and provides great imagng, as well as depth. 

Also one of the quietest.

[doug s.]

Hey guys, this is the solid state circle.   

Tubes need not apply.

bad call.  from the o.p.'s first post:

"...I could do either SS or Tube..."

maybe the thread should be moved to another circle, if making suggestions requested by the o.p. are considered inappropriate? 

ymmv,

doug s.

[timind]

maybe the thread should be moved to another circle, if making suggestions requested by the o.p. are considered inappropriate? 

ymmv,

doug s.

I had considered moving the thread to The Starting Block. But, as the OP is using a Pass Labs X250.5 I didn't think he was a beginner.
The tube recommendations are fine as long as it doesn't spur the age old debate.

[jtwrace]

Hi JW,

I'm sorry to disappoint.  If you need a built in phono preamp, SAS unfortunately does not have a commercial model.  Steve said he designed a somewhat exotic stand-alone tubed phono preamp with regulated power supplies, etc., but he chose not to offer it because it would have been too expensive to offer it as a commercial product. Either way, I believe the design is too large to offer as a built in option on a standard SAS preamp.  Someday I'd like to have a great vinyl setup but it will have to wait a bit. 

Roscoeii has a really nice sounding vinyl setup and an impressive collection of albums (by my standard at least).  Maybe I'm old school but there is something special about listening to a great recording on vinyl. 

Your system looks amazing, and you have owned some truly exotic gear over the years.  I wish I lived close enough to hear it in person! 

Cheers,

Jack

I have a tube pre that I'm happy with so a stand alone phono pre is what I'm after.  Oh well, thought I'd try.  I do wonder what SAS would sell it for though.   

[doug s.]

I have a tube pre that I'm happy with so a stand alone phono pre is what I'm after.  Oh well, thought I'd try.  I do wonder what SAS would sell it for though.   

i have always found s/s fono stages to be wery nice w/tubed line stages...

doug s.

[jtwrace]

i have always found s/s fono stages to be wery nice w/tubed line stages...

doug s.

Really?  What do you suggest then in the SS realm?

[doug s.]

Really?  What do you suggest then in the SS realm?

i do not have huge experience in this area.  but...  i like electrocompaniet and linn, for s/s phono stages.  presently, i am using a pentagon ps-3, which i also think is really nice.  i was gonna buy a linn linto, but i found the pentagon at such a good price, i bought it, strictly based on what i'd read about it.  it's great, i have had it for a lot of years, and i have not had any urge to upgrade.  before i bought it, i did buy a musical surroundings phonomena (original iteration), and i thought it was pretty mediocre - i was glad i bought it from audio adwisor w/a 30 day no questions asked return policy. 

but, the point i am making, more than trying to recommend a particular model, is that i believe it is less critical than a line stage to stick w/tubes.  the minute signals generated by a fono cartridge are such that, at any given price point, i think it's easier to do well w/solid state, and you will get enough fullness through a tube line stage to suffice.  if you have a lot of money to spend, go w/a tube fono.  this is actually adwice that was given to me by wavelength audio's gordon rankin, when i queried him directly about a used wavelength fono stage i was considering buying.  he told me he was discontinuing it, and coming out w/a ~$3k s/s fono stage.  he said the one i was considering would be good for hi-output mc or mm, but that i could do better for lomc, even tho it was able to be used w/both.  this was a bit over 10 years ago...

doug s.

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

If a passive pre-amp works for you, that's great. But the pre-amp's primary role is not gain. Attenuation would be an obvious attribute, but I'd claim it's primarily impedance matching. Here are some of Nelson Pass' thoughts on the subject:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0708/first_watt_b1_preamplifier.htm

It depends on what programme source is usesd. As I already said above, a CD player or DVD-audio player normally gets 600R or so O/P Z. As long as the power amp, SS or tube (tube is even better as it gets very high I/P Z.) gets its I/P Z 10 times or higher the O/P Z of the driving decice, there should no  problem in whatso ever "impedance matching".

Per yr link on an active buffer which gives 50R low low O/P Z. Practically there is no NEED of such lowlow O/P Z for home audio. Maybe unless one gets
mile long interconnects from the preamp to the power amp. But do you?

Don't overlook the down side of any active amp:- harmonic & phase distortions with music signals regardless how good it may measure with sinewaves & the like static methods. Worst of all, any bipolars are not-so-linear device vs triode tubes. MY ears can tell even blindfolded.

So should we spend our hard earned money to acquire an active buffer which is deemed technically redundant & sonically unfriendly???? Unless one is an obcessed DIYer who got nothing else better to pursue.

The bottom line of this link is:- to sell something to the consumers. Use our head to judge, please.

c-J

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

(1) not only do i disagree with you, you disagree w/yourself.  why not run a passive fono stage?   

(2) what does "zero distortion" mean,

(3)...for my ears, nothing does better than a top notch tube preamp

(4)... the ears know best.

(1) Yes, technically it is still possible to play any vinly WITHOUT any phonostage even today.. Surprised???

 Back in the hay days of tube only record players before the invention of megnetic tapes, 'portable' record players & tabletop record players mostly used crystal or piezo electric phono cartridges which generate up to 40 times higher O/P voltage than any MM cartridge today.

 Also the crystal & poiezo electric cartridges got an unlinear frequency response with heavy basss but little HF. Something similar to the RIAA equalizatoin used in the phonstages we used today. So the old timer record players did not come with any phonostages, making such then record players simple & cheaper to build.

Still remember "Sonotone" this old English phono cartridge brandname?? You may still find such old suckers in thrift stores.

That said, to answer your question, such crystal & pieze electric cartrdiges sound too LO-FI vs our Hi-FI aidio todate. So who wants to use it??

(2) "Zero distortion" means not adding any distortion to the incoming signals.

(3) A TUBE preamp, "top notched" or not, as long as it is design-built right,
     should sound wonderful.  Like mine, a one-tube one-stage RIAA phonostage plus a passive linestage. The passive linestage therefore add NO distortions to the incoming signals from the phonostage.

(4) Absolutely, our ears get the last say.

c-J

[doug s.]

c-j, i think you missed what i was saying - i know why you use an active fono stage - it sounds better than passive.   

and i know what zero distortion means; the point i was making is that zero distortion to the recording does not, in and of itself, insure a more realistic illusion of the real thing, which is the sound of real live music...

ymmv,

doug s.

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

(1) i know why you use an active fono stage - it sounds better than passive.   

(2) i know what zero distortion means

(3) the point i was making is that zero distortion to the recording does not, in and of itself,

Sorry, I don't think you know what I was talking nor you actually know what you were talking about yourself. 

(1) Sorry, there is no such thing as "passive' phonostage in this world so far. A MM or MC phono cartridge generate very low voltage. Take MM cartridge, the most commonly used cartridge, is rated for 5mV O/P voltage which is too small to drive any power amp which is rated normally 2Vrms I/P sensitiviy for full power O/P.

Therefore an ACTIVE phono-preamp is a MUST to boost up the phono cartridge O/P voltage enough to drive linestage/power amps. The problem is most most, if not ALL, phono-preamps are designed with too many active stages to OVER drive any power amps.

A US. brandname "handcrafted equipment" phono-preamp used 8 twin tubes, with 4 twin tubes for the linestage !!!!!! Such over design makes me wondering did the designers ever listen CRITICALLY how it sound musically before selling them in the marketplace. Maybe more active stages in an amp will qualify the amp to sell more money, assuming ALL consumers out there were muscially 'deaf'.

When compared to my DIY design/built phono preamp (using only 1 twin tube one single active stage+passive linestage), guess which premp would sound better???

(2) I don't think you know what is "zero distortion" when I read yr (3) comment.

(3) However distorted the music recorded don't matter, as we can do nothing to such fact. As long as our reproduction equipment generate the least distortion, NOT to make the recordings sound worse by adding more distortion.

Don't you know how huge distortion a loudspeaker generates???


c-J 

 

[doug s.]

c-j, sorry, i know that you need an active fono stage; that, realistically speaking, there's no passives, in spite of the gibberish you wrote about passives/piezo's/crystals, etc.  i was actually attempting to impart a bit of sarcastic humour, sorry if you missed it.   

yes, i think you might have mentioned before, how wonderful your simple fono stage is in comparison to a much more elaborate and expensive fono stage.   

sorry, also - i do know what you are talking, about; i also know what i am talking about.  i simply disagree with you, that is all.

i believe, even if the speakers are theoretically with zero distortion, (yes, i realize the speaker distortion level, thank you), and even if the rest of reproduction chain theoretically has zero distortion, (certainly more easily achieved on paper w/a passive preamp, than w/active preamp), then what you will actually hear in your room will sound less like real live music, then if you used a quality active (tube) preamp.  even if, on paper, it doesn't measure as well.  get it?    

as you yourself said, speaker distortion far outweighs the distortion of something like a preamp.  my preamp measures at <0.07% thd.  whatever level of distortion this is, it is more than made up for, by whatever unknown/unmeasurable things it is doing to a recording that makes it sound more like real live music, compared to a passive preamp with zero distortion.

the recording is an artificial thing - it is not real music.  simply reproducing it perfectly only insures you will not be hearing real music in your room.  audiophiles can argue this point until kingdom come.  does that mean there's a right answer?  yes - i'm right!   

ymmv,

doug s.

[cal3713]

Sorry to go absent on you all... but I do appreciate all the info regardless.  Not much to say until I actually start trying some pre-amps.

Also, the reason I posted in the SS circle was because I was looking for something to pair with a SS amp... so without a Tube/SS preference one way or the other for the pre, it wasn't really clear where it should go.

In any case, I actually ended up getting a McIntosh 402, but will probably end up auditioning the Pass X250.5 as well.  Right now I've got a Pass Labs INT-30A, so fortunately I'll be able to hear the 402 through its premp section and get a good idea of what s Pass preamp will sound like. 

Also, all gear will be powering Thiel 2.4s. I have noted that a lot of Thiel owners opt for a SS amp because of the higher power & current available, and then pair the amp with a tubed pre.  Perhaps I'm leaning that way as well...

Any thoughts on the Jeff Rowland Capri?  It's a SS offering that's been favorably compared to some top of the line AR gear, although a few folks on A-gon are responsible for a large percentage of the positive threads on the subject.  I'm attracted to it because it has balanced outputs (good for the Pass amps), and actually would fit in my stereo cabinet well because of its small size. 

[macrojack]

I owned a Capri for a couple of years and loved it. Foolishly I followed my audiophile impulses and moved on to other pieces. Today (yes, this very day) I ordered a new Capri to get me back to my roots.
The Capri doesn't just have XLR connections - it actually is a balanced circuit according to their literature. Mine was dead silent and extremely user friendly. The remote is comfortable, real metal, and works well. The construction is among the best in the world regardless of price. As you mentioned, the unit is very compact, and the feel is extremely solid like a little brick.

I don't try to describe sound - that isn't a form of communication that registers well with me. It's reputation is warm and non-corruptive.

Since you mentioned having read threads, I suppose you are acquainted with the prose of Guidocorona. He'a a rather savvy listener and a rabid proponent of JRDG gear. His descriptions of the sound may help you decide. Rowland is severely under appreciated in the U.S. but he has a strong worldwide following. More American audiophiles should try the Rowland products. He's been a premier builder and designer since he hit the market in 1985 but he has never been willing to caress the posterior of certain prominent publishing entities. That has left him with grudging praise, peripheral mention and a cult following, but no rave reviews.

Here's the Capri owner's manual: http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/Docs/JRDG_Capri_Manual.pdf

Good luck. Tubes are obsolete.

[doug s.]

...Good luck. Tubes are obsolete.

hardly.

i know this is the s/s forum.  and, i know rowland makes fine sounding gear.  but it is simply not true that tubes are obsolete.  years ago, when i was searching for a preamp, the rowland consonance and consummate were on my short list.  while i never had the opportunity to audition them in my home, i was able to get enough of a feel for them to keep my eyes peeled for a decent price on a used unit.  until i heard a melos sha-gold,  game over.  (note my audition of the melos was initially also not in my home system.)  all the detail, clarity and dynamics of the rowlands, but better soundstaging depth and bloom, not at all over-done. 

now, i know the capri is a newer product; surely it must outperform the older consonance and consummate?  but tube preamp ewolution has also not been static.  for a real treat, i suggest auditioning one of the purity audio preamp offerings.  certainly in another league, price-wise, but an amazing experience.  and i am sure there's others from other mfr's that offer the clarity of s/s alongside the beauty that tubes offer.

macro, i am happy that you have found what you are looking for with a fine solid state tube preamp.  but saying tubes are obsolete simply has no basis in reality.  tubes are obsolete for macrojack?  that, i can accept!   

enjoy your new preamp,

doug s.

[S Clark]

Good luck. Tubes are obsolete.

It's like saying horns are obsolete...

[doug s.]

It's like saying horns are obsolete...

from the looks of macro's speakers, i don't think he would say that...   


doug s.

[macrojack]

According to the Rowland factory, the Capri is the best preamp they have ever offered, with the exception of the Corus, which is current production and 4 times the price.

As for tubes being obsolete, they most certainly are. Specialty nerds in the audiophile community still have a use for them, of course, but the rest of the functioning universe has pretty well forgotten them. They do impart a flavor or essence to sound reproduction that many are unwilling to forego and therefore are still in restricted and specialized use.
The last wide usage was the CRT and that appears to have run its course as well.

All that said, I added that comment to the end of my post just to see if anyone was still awake. Two of you were.

Doug - That old photo is two televisions ago but my speakers still look the same even though they have undergone some backstage changes. If you get out your magnifier and squint real hard, you can see my last Capri sitting on top of its partner 102 amplifier in the center of the credenza.

[timind]

Good luck. Tubes are obsolete.

Ok, I should probably remove all replies from this point on. However, they will remain as there is some good info in them which seems relevant to the OP's question.
But....PLEASE DON'T GET IN TO THE DREADED TUBE V SS DEBATE.
Thanks you.

[Ericus Rex]

It's like saying horns are obsolete...

...and turntables.  Gotta TT Macro?