[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

.. passive pre-amps can lack dynamics if not paired correctly to the rest of your system (my first pre-amp was passive).

Nothing is perfect. The best amps need the best loudspeakers & best programme sources to match up.

We want quality music, NOT quantity music. Quality music can only be delivered with least distortion. Least distortion can be only acheived with JUST adequate gain along the active audio chain - preamp & power amp.

Unfortunately, the very common misconcept in home audio is more gain the better. So many many audio fans can't turn up the volume control setting over 8-9 hours (o'clock). This simply shows there is way way way TOO much gain to handle the music properly. Too much gain will definitely overload the active stages down the amp chain. This will ruin the music quality - sounds compressed, lack of air & openness.

Technically, if CD player is the programme source, why needs any active linestage when the CD/DVD player already delivers up to 2Vrms/600R O/p Z). Good enough to drive any power amps direct!! A quality passive linestage  for I/p programmes selection & volume contral will do a better job than any active linestage which generates redundant gains & worst, harmonic distortion & phase shifts. Needless to say, more money to spend.

Lack of dynamics???? My 1-stage tube phonostage+passive linestage can handle
heavy stuffs on  LPs from Tchaikovsky 1912, Beethoven Choral symphony to The Eagles Hotel California.

So...


c-J

[S Clark]

Again, I have both a passive tube buffer and an active tube pre.  The buffer works well in one of my systems, the pre works well in both.  For imaging, which tube I use matters more than whether I use the buffer of the active pre. 
So for all you guys arguing as to whether passive/active is better, my experience says it depends. 

[TONEPUB]

If you haven't heard SS gear rival the best tube, I suggest you listen to Burmester, Vitus or DarTZeel.  But if you are on a tight budget, I suggest the Klyne model 5.  We just featured one in the vintage section of our magazine last month and it is fantastic.  You can usually find a nice clean used one for about $1,000.  Great MM/MC phono stage built in too.

And I love tubes, but this would be my choice on a budget.

[doug s.]

If you haven't heard SS gear rival the best tube, I suggest you listen to Burmester, Vitus or DarTZeel.  But if you are on a tight budget, I suggest the Klyne model 5.  We just featured one in the vintage section of our magazine last month and it is fantastic.  You can usually find a nice clean used one for about $1,000.  Great MM/MC phono stage built in too.

And I love tubes, but this would be my choice on a budget.

me, personally, i am not interested in a preamp the cost of a nice car.  even if i were, i think i'd go tubes instead.   

i have heard klyne, (not in a system i was familiar with), and i have heard good things about them.  but, for my $1k, i would go for a melos sha-gold-r, or ma333, on one of he earlier melos interations.  as always:

ymmv,

doug s.

[nrenter]

Technically, if CD player is the programme source, why needs any active linestage when the CD/DVD player already delivers up to 2Vrms/600R O/p Z). Good enough to drive any power amps direct!! A quality passive linestage  for I/p programmes selection & volume contral will do a better job than any active linestage which generates redundant gains & worst, harmonic distortion & phase shifts. Needless to say, more money to spend.

If a passive pre-amp works for you, that's great. But the pre-amp's primary role is not gain. Attenuation would be an obvious attribute, but I'd claim it's primarily impedance matching.

Here are some of Nelson Pass' thoughts on the subject:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0708/first_watt_b1_preamplifier.htm

[JLM]

I've also done stepped attenuators ("naked" volume controls that ideally plug in between interconnects and power amp).  No source switching (or any other features), not convenient, and no gain but a purist "hair shirt" option that takes cares of impedance concerns.  Having enough gain shouldn't be a problem if your power amps have a low input sensitivity (that was my case - no problem).

Tubes age (and so sound different from new to final failure).  And tube swapping ("rolling") can be expensive and either be fun or drive you crazy if you strive for the absolute best.  Tube need to warm up to sound best, but solid state can be left on indefinitely (that's how I run my entire system, including my high efficiency digital monoblocks).

[doug s.]

I've also done stepped attenuators ("naked" volume controls that ideally plug in between interconnects and power amp).  No source switching (or any other features), not convenient, and no gain but a purist "hair shirt" option that takes cares of impedance concerns.  Having enough gain shouldn't be a problem if your power amps have a low input sensitivity (that was my case - no problem).

Tubes age (and so sound different from new to final failure).  And tube swapping ("rolling") can be expensive and either be fun or drive you crazy if you strive for the absolute best.  Tube need to warm up to sound best, but solid state can be left on indefinitely (that's how I run my entire system, including my high efficiency digital monoblocks).

tube wear in preamps is wery small.  my preamp has been on 24/7 for years, and is on its 2nd set of tubes.  i only replaced them cuz i thought i should - they were old, man!    no noticeable change w/the new tubes, either...

ymmv,

doug s.

[gkinberg]

...i have heard klyne, (not in a system i was familiar with), and i have heard good things about them.  but, for my $1k, i would go for a melos sha-gold-r, or ma333, on one of he earlier melos interations...
doug s.

Doug, For better or worse, I have chosen to shy away from melos offerings because what I've read about reliability issues. And if something does go wrong then repair from the “authorized” source can be problematic. Am I wrong? What has been your experience? I’d just as soon ignore melos product because it make my choice simpler. However, people do seem to love their pre’s.
Thanks, Garth

[doug s.]

Doug, For better or worse, I have chosen to shy away from melos offerings because what I've read about reliability issues. And if something does go wrong then repair from the “authorized” source can be problematic. Am I wrong? What has been your experience? I’d just as soon ignore melos product because it make my choice simpler. However, people do seem to love their pre’s.
Thanks, Garth

the most unreliable thing w/original melos remote-control pre's is the photentiometer - ironically one of the reasons they are so good - this pot is the same thing as the ldr craze now going around.  but, the melos implementation was wery sensitive to alignment - jostling could throw it out of whack - not the best thing, considering ups/fedex/etc..  many of the remote pre's had their pots replaced w/more traditional pots - more reliable, but not quite as transparent. still excellent; that's how the one i bought used, was configured.

then, a tube potentiometer option was offered - supposedly better than the original photentiometer.  i went for it.  it was better than the alps pot, but still not as good as the original photentiometer, imo.  how do i know?  because i bought an eva-2 ldr remote passive preamp, and inserted it between my melos and my amps.  the melos pot is run wide open, the eva-2 does the gain duties.  transparency is even better, so i know that taking the melos' tube pot out of the equation, (which is what you're doing when you run it wide open), the original ldr-style pot is still the best. 

i have been happily using mine, since i bought it more than 10 years ago.  unfortunately, wil guering of m.a.r., has passed away, so there is no authorized service center.  but, there are folks around that can serwice them, if needed.  mark porzilli, one of melos' originial designers, keeps threatening to open a new melos serwice center, but i am not sure if/when that will happen.  i hope soon - i would love to send mine in for even more mods!     i think mr porzilli is presently busy w/the memory player 64...

i would (and do) still highly recommend these preamps, even w/o their original ldr pots - simply great sound all the way around - neutral, dynamic, detailed, extended, excellent soundstaging.  blah blah blah.   

doug s.

[cheap-Jack]

I don't think there is anything out there that comes close to the Dodd pre for the money.  I have the buffer as well, which actually offers a bit more detail (probably the tube difference), but the pre is much more flexible since it has gain.   Gary has re-designed the pre to operate on one tube and an exterior power source, lowering the price to around $1.5K- it's an excellent deal.

From DIYer+audiophile view point, a 2-tube linestage asking for USD3,300 & a 1-tube buffer (cathode follower, I assume) for USD1,500 should better sound good, my friend. IMO, it would cost a small faction of the selling price to build one as I know this audio electronics business too well

I know Dodd is coming out with a phonostage. Guess what price Dodd would ask?

c-J

PS: the buffer should not have "gain" at all as per its specs.

[rollo]

If you haven't heard SS gear rival the best tube, I suggest you listen to Burmester, Vitus or DarTZeel.  But if you are on a tight budget, I suggest the Klyne model 5.  We just featured one in the vintage section of our magazine last month and it is fantastic.  You can usually find a nice clean used one for about $1,000.  Great MM/MC phono stage built in too.

And I love tubes, but this would be my choice on a budget.

   Agree 100%. How did I forget the Klyne SK5A in my first post. I owned one and frankly made a huge mistake selling it. A classic  piece.
  Using a loesch & weisner now.



charles

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

tube wear in preamps is wery small.  my preamp has been on 24/7 for years, and is on its 2nd set of tubes.  i only replaced them cuz i thought i should - they were old, man!    no noticeable change w/the new tubes, either...

Agreed. Preamp tubes normally wear pretty slowly.

Take my 50-years-young Dynaco PS-2 as example, its 4 stock Telefunken ECC83s (ribbed plate with a numbered diamond embossed at the tube bottom) are still kicking around like kids.

The historic marking of one tube peeled off instantly when I carelessly touch it. Thanks goodness. I managed to preserve the loosening markings of the other 3 tubes with clear masking tape.

I purposely keep them in the preamp as I want to enjoy the sonic signature of
these historic tubes. Something money can't buy.

c-J

[jackman]

Just wanted to add another recommendation for the SAS 10A preamp.  It's tubed but with stock tubes, it is very resolving and transparent.  Very dynamic and natural sounding.  It also has a contour switch on the back for three different options.  One setting gives you slightly more high frequency extension, one is neutral and one gives you a bit more weight to the notes.  All sound good but in my system, the neutral setting is perfect. 

I've tried several popular, and expensive, preamps, both tubed and SS and this is the best I've heard in my system.  Stock JJ tubes last a long time, are very inexpensive ($13 per tube and it only takes two) and sound great.  I'm using some new tubes that are a bit more expensive (Genelex Gold Lions) but even they are not as expensive as some exotic NOS tubes.  I like the Genelex but could easily live with the JJ's. 

The 10A does what a preamp is supposed to do.  It does not add warmth or any unnatural EQ to the mix.  The contour settings are very subtle and help you dial in the sound nicely.  If you are looking for euphoric sound, there are several preamps that can give it to you but not the SAS.  Is it perfect?  Nope!  No preamp is perfect, that's why you need to try different ones to see which works best for you.  Also, SAS preamps don't offer remote control and mine has dual mono volume controls.  It took me a short time to get used to the dual volume knobs but they are pretty easy to dial in.  I'm loving my sound and the only preamp I would consider at this point, as a replacement, is the SAS 11A.  SAS has a demo 11A for sale, and I'd highly recommend adding it to your audition list if you can swing it. 

Also, the SAS is not eye candy.  It's solidly constructed, very well designed and the owner of the company is the designer and the guy who assembles each preamp by hand.  Also, they are made in the USA, which is getting more and more rare these days.  I bought it because I like the sound.  The USA thing is just icing on the cake.  If you are in the Chicago area, you are welcome to listen to my system with the SAS. 

Cheers,

J

[jtwrace]

The SAS website doesn't say anything but do they have a Phono Pre available?

[jackman]

The SAS website doesn't say anything but do they have a Phono Pre available?

The SAS website doesn't say anything but do they have a Phono Pre available?

Hi JW,

No dice.  They don't make a phono preamp.  Steve from SAS uses a modded unit in his system but he does not sell a phono pre at the moment.  If the OP needs a phono pre, and he wants to use SAS, he will have to get a separate one. 

Also, I should have mentioned to the OP that a preamp is only part of the imaging equasion.  My system images very well (IMO of course) but you can't get good imaging without proper speaker positioning, room treatments if possible, and the other components working well together.  Also, making sure your speakers are securely anchored to the floor (spikes really made imaging more pinpoint) makes a difference. 

 

[jtwrace]

Hi JW,

No dice.  They don't make a phono preamp.  Steve from SAS uses a modded unit in his system but he does not sell a phono pre at the moment.  If the OP needs a phono pre, and he wants to use SAS, he will have to get a separate one. 

I was asking for me...you seem pretty high on the SAS stuff so I thought I'd give it a try.  Oh well. 

but you can't get good imaging without proper speaker positioning, room treatments if possible, and the other components working well together. 

+1

[jackman]

I was asking for me...you seem pretty high on the SAS stuff so I thought I'd give it a try.  Oh well. 
+1

Hi JW,

I'm sorry to disappoint.  If you need a built in phono preamp, SAS unfortunately does not have a commercial model.  Steve said he designed a somewhat exotic stand-alone tubed phono preamp with regulated power supplies, etc., but he chose not to offer it because it would have been too expensive to offer it as a commercial product. Either way, I believe the design is too large to offer as a built in option on a standard SAS preamp.  Someday I'd like to have a great vinyl setup but it will have to wait a bit. 

Roscoeii has a really nice sounding vinyl setup and an impressive collection of albums (by my standard at least).  Maybe I'm old school but there is something special about listening to a great recording on vinyl. 

Your system looks amazing, and you have owned some truly exotic gear over the years.  I wish I lived close enough to hear it in person! 

Cheers,

Jack

[opnly bafld]

[

[JLM]

Hey guys, this is the solid state circle.   

Tubes need not apply.

[timind]

Hey guys, this is the solid state circle.   

Tubes need not apply.

Good call. Although the OP did state he was open to tube recommendations.
BTW, where is he anyway?