Top shelf mini-monitors

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HAL

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Re: Top shelf mini-monitors
« Reply #180 on: 1 Mar 2012, 06:10 pm »
Well since you mention the B&G NEO3 and NEO8, how about the newer NEO10's?  They look like geat mid drivers to go with the NEO3's.   Go much lower than the NEO8.   

S Clark

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Re: Top shelf mini-monitors
« Reply #181 on: 1 Mar 2012, 06:34 pm »
So is the "ideal" mini monitor a variation on a mini maggie, or a Neo10+Neo3 combo?  Can a small planar produce adequate volume at 150Hz?

Danny Richie

Re: Top shelf mini-monitors
« Reply #182 on: 1 Mar 2012, 07:12 pm »
Quote
The driver tech-talk seems not to be too popular either  I must say, Finding new drivers I like is a personal treasure hunt for me as they seem to make the most difference in any system when properly implemented.

I have some good juicy info to post about drivers but just have not had time. I will get back to this thread as soon as I can.

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Re: Top shelf mini-monitors
« Reply #183 on: 1 Mar 2012, 07:18 pm »
 :hyper:

Jonathon Janusz

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Re: Top shelf mini-monitors
« Reply #184 on: 4 Mar 2012, 06:49 pm »
. . . not to bump this thread up to the top to prod Danny for his driver info or anything. . .  :lol:

. . . also interested in the answer to S Clark's question. . .  :thumb:

. . . and on another note, backing up a page or two, maybe a question pointed at Ryan.  Regarding cabinet materials, you noted that baltic birch ply = good, mdf = not so good.  Without going in to what might be some trade secret type details, any idea how bamboo came out in a test?  It is getting to be more popular, and a very environmentally friendly material.  The "bang for the buck" side of the equation is not even on the radar, but seeing as we are talking about top shelf cabinets here?

Thanks!


srb

Re: Top shelf mini-monitors
« Reply #185 on: 4 Mar 2012, 07:39 pm »
Without having seen any test, if you build with "solid" Bamboo, you are using some form of Bamboo plywood, and my guess would be as a laminated material, it might be more acoustically similar to Baltic Birch plywood than it would be to MDF.
 
However the plywood construction is different.  Baltic Birch plywood usually has more layers than common plywood, such as 13 alternating 90 degree horizontal plies for 3/4" plywood, whereas 3/4" furniture grade bamboo plywood is most often constructed with top and bottom horizontal layers with vertically oriented bamboo strips in between, which is referred as "3 ply", although the center "ply" is made up of the many vertical strips.
 
I know Salk Sound offers Bamboo plywood as an option instead of MDF and I don't know if any accelerometer testing has been performed, but I would imagine that listening comparisons may have.
 
Vapor Sound has talked about accelerometer testing between MDF and Baltic Birch, but I don't know if any testing has been performed between BB plywood and Bamboo plywood.  Bamboo plywood is more expensive, but if testing reveals that it is as effective or better than Baltic Birch, that would be my choice.
 
Steve

ricardojoa

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Re: Top shelf mini-monitors
« Reply #186 on: 4 Mar 2012, 08:01 pm »
I have some vertically laminated bamboo cabinets bookshelfs speakers. After owning some Salk Songtower made with MDF, im not sure if over spending on cabinet material such as baltic or bamboo is worth it over spending on better drivers. But for an ultimate bookshelfs, maybe is worth it.

Jonathon Janusz

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Re: Top shelf mini-monitors
« Reply #187 on: 5 Mar 2012, 02:56 am »
ricardojoa, if you don't mind my asking, for comparison sake, what bookshelves in particular do you have with the bamboo cabinets?  This thread is kind of special around AC as of late, it seems.  In the interest of furthering a very interesting discussion, no one in this thread need be shy about naming names. :)

Thanks!

Danny Richie

Re: Top shelf mini-monitors
« Reply #188 on: 5 Mar 2012, 03:07 am »
I have a lot more to add to this thread I just have not had time. I will get back to it with good stuff.

AJinFLA

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Re: Top shelf mini-monitors
« Reply #189 on: 5 Mar 2012, 04:10 am »
I have some vertically laminated bamboo cabinets bookshelfs speakers. After owning some Salk Songtower made with MDF, im not sure if over spending on cabinet material such as baltic or bamboo is worth it over spending on better drivers.
It isn't. Simply put, once the cabinet is non-resonant enough, there is no audible difference at the listening position in a reverberant room. "Stiff enough" can be braced MDF. An enclosure need not be 1' thick concrete to be audibly benign. That is actually one of the issues I spoke about with Andrew Jones (TAD), who did tons of such research at KEF (as has Sean Olive, who says the same thing). Once the cabinet reaches enough stiffness, it becomes a non factor in the far field. FAR more important, are the sound waves outside the cabinet..and their interactions with the room.
That does not mean a nicely overbuilt, beautiful looking cabinet cannot impact ones perception of sound. To the contrary. There is far more to what we hear, than just the sound waves impinging upon our ears.

cheers,

AJ

p.s. been busy myself Dan, Axpona in 5 days!! :o
Still no servo-sub for my M1s :duh: :D

Danny Richie

Re: Top shelf mini-monitors
« Reply #190 on: 5 Mar 2012, 04:15 am »
Quote
p.s. been busy myself Dan, Axpona in 5 days!!

Axpona was a long drive last year. I was there supporting my client Carnegie Acoustics.

Quote
Still no servo-sub for my M1s 

I have the 8" servo subs in stock and A370PEQ amps. And Brian has the 8 ohm and 4 ohm small sealed box versions (low Q version). The smaller amps are not available still though.

AJinFLA

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Re: Top shelf mini-monitors
« Reply #191 on: 5 Mar 2012, 04:26 am »
Axpona was a long drive last year. I was there supporting my client Carnegie Acoustics.
They going this year?
I have the 8" servo subs in stock and A370PEQ amps. And Brian has the 8 ohm and 4 ohm small sealed box versions (low Q version). The smaller amps are not available still though.
Gotta wait for the small one, the A370 is too big for moi.

cheers,

AJ

Danny Richie

Re: Top shelf mini-monitors
« Reply #192 on: 5 Mar 2012, 04:45 am »
They going this year?Gotta wait for the small one, the A370 is too big for moi.

cheers,

AJ

No, they are not going this year.

Yeah, I am waiting for the smaller sized amps too...

paul canady

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Re: Top shelf mini-monitors
« Reply #193 on: 7 Mar 2012, 08:38 pm »
It isn't. Simply put, once the cabinet is non-resonant enough, there is no audible difference at the listening position in a reverberant room. "Stiff enough" can be braced MDF. An enclosure need not be 1' thick concrete to be audibly benign. That is actually one of the issues I spoke about with Andrew Jones (TAD), who did tons of such research at KEF (as has Sean Olive, who says the same thing). Once the cabinet reaches enough stiffness, it becomes a non factor in the far field. FAR more important, are the sound waves outside the cabinet..and their interactions with the room.
That does not mean a nicely overbuilt, beautiful looking cabinet cannot impact ones perception of sound. To the contrary. There is far more to what we hear, than just the sound waves impinging upon our ears.

cheers,

AJ

p.s. been busy myself Dan, Axpona in 5 days!! :o
Still no servo-sub for my M1s :duh: :D

       I thought TAD was using MDF in prototype builds and not ever going into detail about how there cabinets are  braced, built, or any other proprietary methods used. If they are using 1" MDF then I would think there is a whole lot more going on inside that cabinet than I think they care to share. I would believe they would be measuring cabinet resonance and taking this very seriously. Braced well enough is extremely vague. I would much rather have an over built cabinet than a 1" well braced non measured cabinet. What is non-resonant enough unless you measure the differences? I do agree that the room is the most important factor and the best tweak is to tweak the room. Good luck with this if you have a wife.

Hank

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Re: Top shelf mini-monitors
« Reply #194 on: 8 Mar 2012, 03:43 pm »
AJ wrote: 
Quote
Once the cabinet reaches enough stiffness, it becomes a non factor in the far field. FAR more important, are the sound waves outside the cabinet..and their interactions with the room.
+1  :thumb:

neekomax

Re: Top shelf mini-monitors
« Reply #195 on: 8 Mar 2012, 04:05 pm »
Still no servo-sub for my M1s :duh: :D

Would you happen to be talking about the project you mentioned to me on the phone a while back? Is that happening?

kip_

Re: Top shelf mini-monitors
« Reply #196 on: 9 Mar 2012, 12:57 pm »
ricardojoa, if you don't mind my asking, for comparison sake, what bookshelves in particular do you have with the bamboo cabinets?  This thread is kind of special around AC as of late, it seems.  In the interest of furthering a very interesting discussion, no one in this thread need be shy about naming names. :)

Thanks!

He owns Ascend Sierra-1s

Danny Richie

Re: Top shelf mini-monitors
« Reply #197 on: 10 Mar 2012, 04:37 pm »
Okay I finally got a moment to get back to this thread. And I want to get back to drivers and driver selection, and specifically woofers.

Many people start out looking and thinking I want a good woofer with low distortion. This kind of reminds me of back in the day when we looked at figures generated for advertising purposes as real measuring sticks. Distortion numbers can be as misleading as anything else ever mentioned. So I wanted to take a look at that aspect.

There are several problems with rated distortion numbers or figures.
1) Inconsistency of data and data taking methods.
2) Inability to get meaningful measured data.
3) Inability to distinguish between variations when listening.

Number one is simple. Measured data taken from one person is typically never taken the same way by the next person. There is no real standard for this stuff at all. By contrast we measure frequency response or SPL data based on a standard of 1 watt/1meter. So there is some level of comparison. This really doesn't exist with distortion measuring methods. So it is pretty useless to compare measured data for one source to another.

Number two is where it gets interesting. It has gotten to where anyone that buys a computer based measuring system thinks they can now measure distortion levels because the function is built into the software. The real truth is that the ability to get any useful measurements taken outside of an anechoic chamber is very difficult and spotty at best.

I think the Clio measuring system manual outlines the difficulties in getting any meaningful distortion numbers pretty clearly.

This is from the manual:


11.4 DISTORTION AND SETTINGS

Sinusoidal stimuli allow CLIO to evaluated distortion in its single harmonic form. If not
Set in Impedance Mode, CLIO always evaluates harmonics from second to fifth and
allows the display of each one separately via its own push buttons. While it is simple to
obtain meaningful distortion figures of electrical devices, measuring Loudspeaker
distortion in normal environments (without anechoic chamber) is not easy. We will only
give some advice here, relying on examples, as the topic is far beyond the scope of this
User Manual. To do this we will use CLIO’s FFT Menu in quite an advanced way. Distortion
evaluation is adversely affected by several parameters, two of which are the most
important.


Noise

50 dBSPL of ambience noise, a common figure, usually does not affect Amplitude
evaluation which is usually carried out at an average level of 90dBSPL. This is
particularly true using CLIO Sinusoidal Analysis capability which, by means of DSP
filtering, allows exceptional S/N Ratio. Unfortunately evaluating 1% distortion means
looking for signals that are 40dB lower than the 90dBSPL mentioned above, in the
same order of magnitude as environment noise.


Gating Effects

Device settling time, non perfect delay removal and reflections arriving within the
sampling time (Meter On) seriously affect distortion measurements, creating
artifacts.



Just to sum up the just of those two outlined problems. The noise floor is as loud or louder than the distortion levels trying to be measured. And room related reflections also add in measurement artifacts that disrupt the measurements.

There are two things that can be done to help overcome those two problems.

One is to raise the output levels. This creates a greater level of output verses room noise. Of coarse this raises distortion levels as well. The funny thing is that distortion levels can be different at different power levels. So what power level should be used? And room reflected effects get stronger as well. Again we get back to no reference for taking these measurements.

The second thing is to get the mic closer to the speaker. This also creates a greater difference between the output level and the noise floor. And it can easily overload the mic if the levels are not brought down to low levels. So you wind up with output levels that are fairly low. This gives no real world data either.

Furthermore, there can be some variation in the measurements because of fluctuations in the room noise levels. A refrigerator coming on in the next room over, a computer fan kicking in, or a heating or air conditioning unit coming on can greatly effect any measured responses at levels below 50db.

Then thirdly, is our ability to hear these claimed differences. So if someone says they measured woofer A and it had 1.2% total distortion and speaker B had 1.8% total distortion. Is one going to sound better than the other based on those numbers? What if one has a strong 3rd harmonic at 600Hz and the other doesn't. It has a strong 4th harmonic at 1.5kHz. But then there is a average....  There is little useful data.

Again these numbers are at or below the noise floor and almost impossible to tell if some even strong distortion problems are part of the music or not. Let alone small variations. And if we are listening at 80 to 85db levels then any measurable distortion will be in the 40db range and below our hearing threshold for any average room.

This reminds me of back in the late 70's and early 80's when most amplifiers or receivers pushed advertising the distortion numbers. Receiver A listed less than 1% distortion and receiver B listed only .1% distortion. Did it sound 10 times cleaner than receiver A? Then some companies started listing receivers with .01% distortion. And I remember seeing one listed at .005% distortion. I guess all you have to do is measure it at a small fraction of its rated power and somewhere you'll find a low number. The real truth was that there was many other things that determined how those receivers really sounded. And a distortion measurement taken at some unknown level really doesn't tell you much at all.

And the real truth is that there are many other factors that determine how a speaker sounds and a measured distortion figure really doesn't scratch the surface. In fact it really tells you nothing other than no major problems exist in that area. And that is only if the manufacturer can provide a good anechoic measurement.

Of all the measurements that can be taken involving acoustic output of any kind the distortion measurements tell you the least about how a driver will sound.

As soon as I have more time I will hit some things that do make a difference and talk about what to really look for in a driver.

wushuliu

Re: Top shelf mini-monitors
« Reply #198 on: 5 Apr 2012, 06:07 am »
Interesting thread. For instance I came across an old(?) post where Danny compared his N2X favorably with the Usher Be-718, with some advantages even. I can't help but think that the N2X drivers - as good as they may be and as tricked out as the crossover may be - are nowhere near as good as the 'world class' Usher woofer and tweeter. And yes I am going off the measurement work done by different folks at places like TechTalk, etc. but since Danny designed both I think it would real interesting to understand what facets make such seemingly incomparable designs comparable.

I ask partly because I just got the Usher 8948A and Usher 9950 to make a 2-way, and was surprised to come across Danny's comment re N2Xs! Maybe I made a mistake!



 

wushuliu

Re: Top shelf mini-monitors
« Reply #199 on: 5 Apr 2012, 06:40 am »

Many people start out looking and thinking I want a good woofer with low distortion. This kind of reminds me of back in the day when we looked at figures generated for advertising purposes as real measuring sticks. Distortion numbers can be as misleading as anything else ever mentioned. So I wanted to take a look at that aspect.

There are several problems with rated distortion numbers or figures.
1) Inconsistency of data and data taking methods.
2) Inability to get meaningful measured data.
3) Inability to distinguish between variations when listening.


I have heard other professional speaker designers say the exact same thing when  it comes to interpreting what makes a good driver from bad and the unreliability of some of the third party testing and judgements made these days.