[Ric Schultz]

Ryan,
I am not a theorist.  I deal in reality.  The only thing real is what I hear......and that sometimes can be measured.  Time alignment you can hear and measure.  It is not a theory.  Every speaker I have ever made sounds best when the higher frequency drivers are set back to match the lower frequency drivers.....measures and sounds better.  About felting.  I don't have a theory about what needs to be felted or not.  I try it.  If it improves the sound then it does.  If I had a pair or your speakers (or anyones speakers) the first thing I would do is felt the whole front baffle.....has always brought good results.  Maybe in your speaker it does nothing.  The only way to find out is to try it.  By the way, felting the whole inside of a waveguide helps too.  The highs bounce around in the waveguide (Geddes calls them HOMs).  Geddes uses open cell foam in his waveguides (he has a patent on it).  My friend has the Geddes waveguide crossed over at 850 using a Beyma compression driver and it sounds outrageous.

Binding post bypass system:  Go to my website and to products then to amps for sale (discontinued) and on the amp page you will see a link to another page with pics.....scroll down and you will see my binding post bypass system.  Feel free to use it on your speakers as well as all my other ideas.  It sounds better than any binding post made.

Bybee filters are used by many people in front of their crossover or after it right before the drivers.  Reference 3A uses them in their production speakers.  They work, but require many hours to burn in.  Just talked to a customer the other day and he is ecstatic about his Bybees on his speakers.

Cryoing speaker xover parts and wires is nothing new.  Several manufacturers do it.  Improves the sound, some say.  Never heard it personally.

As far as an example of all these techniques....well, I will have speakers out later this year using all the things I mention.  All speakers open baffle and biamped equalized bass.   Baffles as small as 10 inches wide.  So, not much wider than a monitor.

[Danny Richie]

Binding post bypass system:  Go to my website and to products then to amps for sale (discontinued) and on the amp page you will see a link to another page with pics.....scroll down and you will see my binding post bypass system.  Feel free to use it on your speakers as well as all my other ideas.  It sounds better than any binding post made.

I am kind of hooked on a similar idea myself.

Tube Connectors: http://www.electracable.com/tubeconnector.htm

The performance difference is surprising. I will never use another binding post if I can help it.

[nickd]

Anyone remember the first Soliloquy loudspeakers that Cary was selling (built by PBN I think) back in the day. One model I thought was quite good was a 2 way floor stander with an older 1 1/2" Scanspeak tweeter and a tuned pipe loaded 8" woofer (from Vifa I think)

I just remember that the low crossover was unique and they had a HUGE open soundstage. Problems elsware (thick bass and lower mids) but they might have been on to something. I have yet to play with a wave guided small tweeter at home but those I have heard seem to limit the sweet spot slightly.

The tweeter seems to be the weak link in the chain once we have a nice box. Some of the new "folded ribbions" have my interest lately. The new Wisdom in-walls have an amazing tweeter. Now how do we talk them into selling them for DIY use

   

[Ric Schultz]

Yes, I am sure the tube connectors are great but require a customer to terminate his speaker wire into the connector himself.....and the connector can only handle a certain gauge wire.  My binding post bypass system allows you to use what ever speaker wire you have and clamp it directly to the wire coming out of the speaker....nothing at all between them.  It does require you to bring the wire out of the speaker/amp (if you have a box) through a hole and terminated it on the outside of the post (I personally like tinning the wire with Wonder Solder Signature and wraping it around the post and soldering it to itself in a loop).  If you have an open baffle speaker then you just run the wires to the outside of the post...no need for a hole.

[Danny Richie]

Anyone remember the first Soliloquy loudspeakers that Cary was selling (built by PBN I think) back in the day. One model I thought was quite good was a 2 way floor stander with an older 1 1/2" Scanspeak tweeter and a tuned pipe loaded 8" woofer (from Vifa I think)

That was the model 8.2 I believe. I did a mod for them and designed a new crossover for them. 

Yes, I am sure the tube connectors are great but require a customer to terminate his speaker wire into the connector himself.....and the connector can only handle a certain gauge wire.  My binding post bypass system allows you to use what ever speaker wire you have and clamp it directly to the wire coming out of the speaker....nothing at all between them.  It does require you to bring the wire out of the speaker/amp (if you have a box) through a hole and terminated it on the outside of the post (I personally like tinning the wire with Wonder Solder Signature and wraping it around the post and soldering it to itself in a loop).  If you have an open baffle speaker then you just run the wires to the outside of the post...no need for a hole.

The connectors can handle wire up to 10 gauge. How much bigger do you need? They also work with standard banana plugs, but if the customer really wants the best connection then it is pretty easy to terminate their wire with the male studs that come with the tube connectors. And there will be less in the signal path between the wires than if they used your binding post by-pass and spades on their cables. Two thumbs up for tube connectors...  

[jtwrace]

Danny,

Have you ever measured (electrically) a speaker with and without binding posts and of course with the Tube Connectors?

If so, post some data!!!

[Danny Richie]

Danny,

Have you ever measured (electrically) a speaker with and without binding posts and of course with the Tube Connectors?

If so, post some data!!!

They don't alter the response. The measured data is still the same.

[jtwrace]

They don't alter the response. The measured data is still the same.

Then how can it change the sound?

[Zero]

   Magic.  From elves.

As an aside, I suppose I'm the oddball here.  Some of my favorite mini monitors use thin(ish) cabinets. 

[Danny Richie]

Then how can it change the sound?

Anytime you put a break in a wire and insert anything in between it the signal is altered. And in the case of inserting an inch and a half long brass bolt for the signal to have to pass through that is a pretty sizable change in signal path.

[Ric Schultz]

Well, if you are going to reterminate your speaker cables then it is even easier to just remove the spades and use your tinned or bare wire on the binding post bypass system and you will have even less in the way than the tube connectors.  Any way you look at it the binding post bypass system allows the most flexibility and the absolute best sound.  I know it may not look as pretty on the back of a monitor but it will sound better.  By the way, banana plugs really suck!  I have never used anything on my speakers and amps for over 30 years except clamped wires or soldered wires.  All massive connectors (speaker posts, bananas, spades) are merely distortion producing hunks of junk....he he.  The tube connector is the cleverist? idea in a long time to make something better but still requires speaker wire retermination and cannot equal a wire to wire clamp.

[Danny Richie]

Ric,

In high end Audio you face the same problem with that idea that the tube connectors face. It is not audio jewelry. Plus it requires educating the consumer.

Some get it and some just don't.

When Albert Von Schweikert was showed the tube connectors he got it immediately and before I could even tell him about them he started telling me all about them and all the ways they are better than binding posts.

When Jeff Joseph looked at them he wasn't interested at all. They didn't look impressive enough to be on the back of his speakers. He wanted some big Gold nuggets on the back of his speakers with a nice bling to them.

[persisting1]

When Albert Von Schweikert was showed the tube connectors he got it immediately and before I could even tell him about them he started telling me all about them and all the ways they are better than binding posts.

When Jeff Joseph looked at them he wasn't interested at all. They didn't look impressive enough to be on the back of his speakers. He wanted some big Gold nuggets on the back of his speakers with a nice bling to them.

Could there be a "bling" series of tube connectors to satisfy those who need more bling?

[jtwrace]

Anytime you put a break in a wire and insert anything in between it the signal is altered. And in the case of inserting an inch and a half long brass bolt for the signal to have to pass through that is a pretty sizable change in signal path.

Right.  I just thought if it was that noticeable then it would be that measureable.   

[grimace]

Gotta just say that from a total amateur perspective (that's me), this is the coolest thread I've seen on any forum in a very, very long time....

Thanks!

[Danny Richie]

Right.  I just thought if it was that noticeable then it would be that measureable.   

Just for you...

It's kind of like this. The driver comes in and says the car feels a little loose. Crew chef says, how do you know? Did you measure it? Drivers says no, I can feel it. 

Same thing.

The listener says trailing edges of the notes sound cleaner. Sound stage placement became more focused. And the detail levels overall sound better. Then the flat earth guys says, how do you know? Did you measure it? Listener says no, I can hear it. 

Now I am sure there may be censors on those cars now that might detect when the car is feeling a little loose. And one day someone might figure out some good ways to measure some meaningful differences in binding posts.

But when it gets right down to it, even if you did have a meter on the car to measure when it gets loose, there is still nothing like hearing a driver tell you what it feels like.

The same goes for just about all things audio. I can measure a speaker, and a lot of other things, up one side and down the other, but the real key is hearing a listener tell you exactly how it sounds.

[jcotner]

Hi guys. Felt compelled to comment esp. since I set up an account days ago and yet to post. While not a speaker expert I have been a design engineer for 30+ years so from an electrical perspective this all makes sense. Any time you break the wire (sorry even with the gold pins and sockets) you likely change the electrical path. Even solder can alter things (ever so slightly). But this all boils down to resistance changes (every metal is a little different) and capacitance and inductance changes. Solder connections are much better than the mechanical connections. You can develop what amounts to a gap with a mechanical connection where eventual oxidation adds both resistance and capacitance (a capacitor is two plates with a gap or dilectric). This will be in series with the amp and crossover so some change could result in crossover response. So if my wife doesn't care (in my case doesn't know the difference) I think my build would have the wire soldered to the input of the crossover out the back through a hole and to the amp (all in one run of wire).
So if you think I'm blowing smoke (I'd disagree) or I'm a dork (I'd might agree) but it seems like a safe place for me to interject myself into the forum.
Hello all!

[Jonathon Janusz]

Back on enclosure materials - doesn't Albert Von Schweikert use a layered differing material approach on his current designs?  Maybe hinting at the Vapor's secret sauce regarding varying the speed of sound passing through different materials (and I'm making a guess on this one but if a few of those materials also act as heat sinks as a double up approach to the energy dissipation. . .)?  The layers making up No-Rez along with the outer cabinet materials pulling off a similar trick, minus directly addressing the heat problem?

I also wanted to throw one more example out there.  The Daedalus Audio DA-RMa.  Not exactly a "mini" monitor, but I think suitably "high end" for the discussion, maybe a little iffy on the "pedigree" of the drivers (?), but I think the cabinet designs are signature-unique and right in line with the discussion.  If this thread catches Lou's eye, maybe a few words on his thoughts regarding choice of cabinet materials and construction techniques?

So, that aside, a little summary:

Regarding Enclosures - many different ways to skin the cat, a top-shelf speaker being exemplified in that the cabinet design goes above and beyond the norm to either eliminate the problems caused by the necessity of the cabinet as part of the overall speaker design, or alternately actively engineers the speaker as part of the design to leverage/take advantage of the characteristics of the specific speaker's cabinet design.  Short version being that none of this is either simple (engineering) or cheap (materials).

Regarding wire termination/binding posts - Strictly from a performance perspective, in a perfect world in a vacuum, bare wires would run straight from crossovers (or drivers if no crossover is used) to amp.  Reality leads us down two roads.  One, in which there is solid engineering and design brought to the table in making a more "user friendly" implementation of the ideal.  The biggest challenge in this case being that even in the face of data and evidence up to and including a direct demonstration to a prospective customer, the designer/manufacturer/dealer really needs to invest quite a bit at this point in time in "selling" the idea to the prospective client - again translated into cost (call it advertising, marketing, time/labor in direct person-to-person contact of some kind, etc.), this is not cheap.  The alternate road is more straightforward.  Accept as fact that whatever termination used will somehow affect the overall design, account for it best you can, invest in whatever materials/components it takes by way of binding hardware to minimize the negative impact (read: throw money at the problem in big ticket but easily marketed as a "feature" component materials), and make sure the solution is both high in status/pride of ownership mindshare and at least works just as hard for the speaker as jewelry in selling the premiere status of the speaker's fit and finish.  Short version: spend money in putting the best spin possible on an otherwise negative mark, making a conscious decision to pick your battles as a designer elsewhere.

I'm sure there is more to come, but it looks like the conversation is now starting to sneak up on discussing drivers - tweeters in particular got called out first, I think?  We've also skirted talking open baffle and coaxials.

Cheers to all!

[jtwrace]

Just for you...

It's kind of like this. The driver comes in and says the car feels a little loose. Crew chef says, how do you know? Did you measure it? Drivers says no, I can feel it. 

Same thing.

Well, it's still not subjective though.  We have a stop watch at the very least and that's if the data system isn't installed. 

If it is, there are a few ways to do it...accelerometer in the front and rear, slip sensor or throttle and steering angle sensor.  A proper test though is all of these sensors and about 75 more with live telemetry. 
[/quote]

[jimdgoulding]

I dunno if it's appropriate for me to drop in a recommendation here but Reference 3A Dulcets are pretty highly thought of and for more bass, their Da Capo's.