[roymail]

I already posted this in the Enclosure Circle but want to get the advice of the GR guys, too.

I have a pair of Klipsch 2-way monitors that sound pretty good, but I think they can do better with improved crossovers.

The stock crossovers appear to be using some electrolytics, mylars, and cheap coils and resistors with 2nd order to the woofer and 3rd order to the tweeter.

How much improvement can I expect by rebuilding them using the same configuration but substituting better parts like Sonicaps, Erse, Mills, etc?

I would not do this except the speakers appear to have real promise.  I'm also thinking about rebuilding the cabinets.

Thanks for any advice.

[Danny Richie]

I sent some speakers around with two identical crossovers so people could hear for themselves how much difference is made. Those speakers need a new home, BTW. So if anyone would like to hear for themselves what kind of difference the crossover quality makes then please let me know.

What was found was that if you have a very budget system, bottle necked, or held back with cheap electronics and cheap CD players then the difference will be subtle to marginally noticeable at best. One guy could tell no difference at all with this type of system. However, as system quality increases the differences become very apparent. On a top level system the differences can be staggering. 

Considering what comes in those speakers then you may want to replicate the crossover with good parts, point to point wiring and use good quality wire. No Rez usually goes a long way with those speakers as well.

[KS]

I did exactly that with some Missions.  I removed one crossover assembly and mailed it to Danny.  He measured the values and recommended replacements with pricing.  The original resistors in mine were OK according to Danny, and he supplied new caps & coils including bypass caps.  Of course the new stuff was bigger so I had to make new assemblies, but it worked out great.  Get some No-Rez and install internal bracing while you're in there.  The results were great and the price was really right.  by the way, I had only mid-range electronics.  Telephone Danny for more info.

[gotchaforce]

I sent some speakers around with two identical crossovers so people could hear for themselves how much difference is made. Those speakers need a new home, BTW. So if anyone would like to hear for themselves what kind of difference the crossover quality makes then please let me know.

What was found was that if you have a very budget system, bottle necked, or held back with cheap electronics and cheap CD players then the difference will be subtle to marginally noticeable at best. One guy could tell no difference at all with this type of system. However, as system quality increases the differences become very apparent. On a top level system the differences can be staggering. 

Considering what comes in those speakers then you may want to replicate the crossover with good parts, point to point wiring and use good quality wire. No Rez usually goes a long way with those speakers as well.

One speaker has a good crossover and the other one has a normal one??? Or two pairs of speakers?

[corndog71]

I've rebuilt the crossovers for a couple of pairs of Klipsch speakers and both times they were a big improvement. 

You might consider checking out Bob Crite's website too as he sells upgraded tweeters for certain classic models as well as other parts.
http://www.critesspeakers.com/

[HAL]

One speaker has a good crossover and the other one has a normal one??? Or two pairs of speakers?

Each speaker has both crossovers with switching to select each so you can hear the differences between them.

[djkest]

I'm actually thinking about doing this for some Paradigm speakers I have that are about 9 years old now. One thing I was wondering: won't my capacitors degrade over time? So what I'm thinking is, even just replacing the capacitors with some higher-quality new stuff would be an improvement.

If you replace iron-core or steel laminate inductors with air-core, you want a big enough gauge to match the DCR of the previous inductor, correct?

And also, do you feel that air core inductors offer a much better sound? I heard that iron/steel core inductors have "hysteresis" or something like that - that impacts the sound quality, and the only real reason to use them is to save money.

Thanks.

[roymail]

From what others has said, replacing the caps or bypassing NP's with high quality caps generally makes the most difference, inductors not so much.  I do the resistor's, too

[Danny Richie]

Cap differences are pretty great. Just upgrading from the electrolytic caps to some inexpensive poly caps will be a big improvement.

And yes those iron core inductors do color and smear the signal. I only recommend using them in ranges below 200Hz and NOT in a driver that will be handling mid-range.

Matching the DCR is not a problem as Paradigm used the dental floss gauge wire to begin with. On that note I have also measured differences in low frequency output going from 16 gauge to 14 gauge and then 12 gauge. The differences in output found in the bottom end equal to about 1/10th of a db difference from one gauge size to the next.

[Æ]

I'm actually thinking about doing this for some Paradigm speakers I have that are about 9 years old now. One thing I was wondering: won't my capacitors degrade over time? So what I'm thinking is, even just replacing the capacitors with some higher-quality new stuff would be an improvement.

If you replace iron-core or steel laminate inductors with air-core, you want a big enough gauge to match the DCR of the previous inductor, correct?

And also, do you feel that air core inductors offer a much better sound? I heard that iron/steel core inductors have "hysteresis" or something like that - that impacts the sound quality, and the only real reason to use them is to save money.

Thanks.

Electrolytic capacitors degrade over time, fifteen to thirty years, they dry out. Film capacitors should last as long as you do.
Air core inductors produce less distortion, but then again a large air core inductor has to have a heck of a lot more copper, making it more expensive. More turns of copper also means more resistance. Kind of a trade off. Air cores having less distortion, but more insertion loss. Not all air cored inductors are of the highest quality either.
An iron/ferrite cored inductor can perform quite admirably too, as long as you don't saturate the core.
Money is a consideration when choosing, using inductors, so is physical size.
In a midrange or tweeter circuit I'd probably use an air core inductor. In the woofer circuit I might prefer to use an iron/ferrite core inductor.

[djkest]

Just removed the crossover to take a peek at it.
Tweeter section:
15W1R4 Sandcast Resistor (15 watts, 1 ohm?)
Electrolytic cap, 5.6 uF, Bennic
20 gauge square bobbin air-core inductor

Woofer/2.5 way section:
2 10W- Sandcast resistors (why?)
1 air core inductor (looks like 19 or 20 gauge, also on a square bobbin)
1 Steel Laminate Inductor
2 Electrolytic Capacitors, bigger, I think one says "polarized" on it?

As far as the design goes, I'm wondering if the resistors are there for some sort of conjugate network, like a notch? That would make sense with the caps being there as well.

Funny thing, for $850/pair these were not bad speakers, and (IMO) they sound pretty darn good. But I'm thinking with new crossovers these things would have a lot more resolution. There's tons of space in the bottom for longer/bigger boards if I go that route- they are currently on 2 generic PCB attached to the binding post/cup.

[Danny Richie]

A paradigm Studio 60 that I had apart.



Sad but true...

[WC]

A paradigm Studio 60 that I had apart.



Sad but true...

For those of us who don't know any better (or much of anything about crossovers), what improvements would you make with that crossover or would you just throw it away and start over with better components?

[Danny Richie]

If that speaker had a decent response curve I'd replicate it with good parts and throw that thing away.

However, the Studio 60 did not have a smooth response and did have some phase issues too. So if it were me I would do a complete re-design.

[S Clark]

Hard to say without knowing exactly where things are in the circuit, bu start by throwing away the $.50 electrolytic caps, then get something heavier (16-18ga) than what appears to be 22 ga wire in the iron core inductors and change to air core anything directly in the woofer signal path, then upgrade the $.50 sand cast resistors.  Actually, depending on where that yellow (polypropylene?) cap is in the circuit, there may not be anything worth keeping. Danny's comment "Sad, but true" sums it up pretty well.
When building student projects in my high school classes, we used better components than this.

Oops, Danny beat me to it.

[raysracing]

I recently replaced my bass drivers in my Def Tec BP10's after 20 years of daily use and was amazed at the small gauge of wire used and wondered what BP10's potential would be with a rewire and mods. Care to enlighten me as I would love to have a project (I can afford)! Def Tec said nothing could be done to improve them. Bah!

I too have early Paradigm Titans that I love the sound of, but they dont image worth a darn. I was hoping to retain what I like about the tone, but make them image. They are currently in a nearfield set-up right by my desk and Mac Book (iTunes/Spotify) with a tiny T-amp and Cambridge DAC Magic. Simply amazing for the money.

TIA,
Ray

[Æ]

2 Electrolytic Capacitors, bigger, I think one says "polarized" on it?

Hopefully it says Non-Polarized. The "Non" part may not be visible. True capacitors are an AC device and as such have no polarity. However the electrolyte in electrolytic capacitors requires a polarity. Whenever using electrolytic capacitors in a crossover, make sure and use NP, (Non-Polarized. Otherwise just use film capacitors and all is fine.

[S Clark]

I recently replaced my bass drivers in my Def Tec BP10's after 20 years of daily use and was amazed at the small gauge of wire used and wondered what BP10's potential would be with a rewire and mods. Care to enlighten me as I would love to have a project (I can afford)! Def Tec said nothing could be done to improve them. Bah!

I too have early Paradigm Titans that I love the sound of, but they dont image worth a darn. I was hoping to retain what I like about the tone, but make them image. They are currently in a nearfield set-up right by my desk and Mac Book (iTunes/Spotify) with a tiny T-amp and Cambridge DAC Magic. Simply amazing for the money.

TIA,
Ray

Ray,
Can you figure out the circuit and post a schematic? Then we could prioritize recommendations.

Scott

[raysracing]

A friend just gave me his Boston Acoustic A70's and said do what you want with them. I love them and now that a foam surround disintegrated and they are pulled out of my system I took a picture of the crossover. They are rated as 6-8ohm speakers with a sealed cabinet. As the foam surround started to go that speaker actually started sounding bassier and louder. I thought I had an amplifier problem or was losing hearing in my right ear!!

Here is a pic of the simple crossover. Can anyone explain it to me and can we improve anything? I can easily remove it from the cabinet too if need be.


Thanks.

[raysracing]

They use an 8" woofer and 25mm ferro fluid cooled tweeter in a very heavy, well braced box filled with foam.  I am going to send them off to be repaired as I dont trust myself to center the cone properly. Any suggestions for US companies? I see Parts Express does it.