VPI Scoutmaster Sig advice

beaglebump · « **on:** 29 Jan 2012, 05:24 pm »

Seeking advice from experienced analog-ers: Have been enjoying what I consider a solid analog foundation for a few years now (Scoutmaster Sig. table, HRX center weight/periphery ring clamp, Sumiko Blackbird cart, EAR 834p Deluxe phono pre, JPS SC3 i/c's all around). It has been responsible for bringing me back to my vinyl roots. I'd like to invest in an upgrade w/o changing tables, and would like to ask which is the logical first step: 1) Improved phono pre?, 2) cart?, 3) arm? I realize improved sonics is largely predicated on the synergy bet. all three of these elements, but which to start? Budgeting around 2k in the nicely pre-owned market for any one element. Internal logic suggests start as close to the source as possible and look at the cart. Any thoughts/suggestions are greatly appreciated, as well as brand recommendations.

orthobiz · « **Reply #1 on:** 29 Jan 2012, 05:33 pm »

Some subscribe to the idea that the order of improvement goes from the TT to the Tonearm to the Cartridge to Preamp.

I have been upgrading my HW-19 to silly levels but notice distinct improvements each time. I am unfamiliar with the Signature specifically, and VPI seems to have so many iterations it's not hard to lose track!

Anyway, maybe the SDS first? 1200, less used.

Paul

Naun · « **Reply #2 on:** 29 Jan 2012, 06:29 pm »

I'm no vinyl expert but I found my Scout, and to a somewhat lesser degree the Classic that replaced it, to be very particular about what kind of platform it sat on. From your system photo it looks like you have your Scoutmaster on some kind of glass shelf. You might consider trying something different. I found a Silent Running Audio Tremor/Less M to work beautifully under my Scout.

The other tweak I've found to make a very significant improvement is replacing the stock clamp with a one-piece Black Diamond Racing carbon fibre clamp.

Wayner · « **Reply #3 on:** 29 Jan 2012, 07:50 pm »

And then there is the point of diminishing returns, where more and more money produces less and less improvement. Sometimes it's hard to know if your going down the rabbit hole.

Wayner

beaglebump · « **Reply #4 on:** 29 Jan 2012, 10:34 pm »

Wayne - So very true. Seems all the more so w/ analog, IMHO, but perhaps that comes from my little experience with high-end analog. Recently, I auditioned a Dynavector XV-1s, just to have a comparison point with my Blackbird. Took great pains to dial in everything, VTF, overhang, VTA, etc., etc. Lived with it and made small adj. here and there for a month. Maybe it was just too much cart w/ insufficient arm/phono pre, but really didn't move me as I thought it would. In fact, preferred the Blackbird in many respects. So again, just really hard to know what would be the most successful path to improved sound.

vortrex · « **Reply #5 on:** 29 Jan 2012, 11:44 pm »

I had the 834P and then moved to a K&K. that was a substantial upgrade in my opinion. your 834P used would sell for the same price as a new MM only K&K to use with your Blackbird.

etcarroll · « **Reply #6 on:** 29 Jan 2012, 11:59 pm »

What tubes do you have in the 834P?

I bought mine used from another member, replaced the Chinese tubes it had with NOS Mullards, got a nice improvement in sound. Then changed to NOS smooth plate Telefunkens, got a minor additional improvement.

And placing a uni-pivot on a good surface helps, I got a Gingko under my SSM, it helped firm up the sound.

putz · « **Reply #7 on:** 30 Jan 2012, 12:43 am »

Lot of good suggestions here already.

A used SDS runs $6oo+. If you don't like it, you should be able to sell it for what you paid for it. One tweak that you'd need the SDS for is replacing the belt with silk string. That's next on my list.

If you have the cone shaped feet on your Scoutmaster, replacing them is worthwhile. I replaced my Aries feet with Eden Sounds Terrastone footers.

I'm using a Maple butcher block under my table.

Don't forget the Magic Eraser for stylus cleaning. $5.00

kgturner · « **Reply #8 on:** 30 Jan 2012, 01:45 am »

Quote from: putz on 30 Jan 2012, 12:43 am

Don't forget the Magic Eraser for stylus cleaning. $5.00

Where are you people buying your Magic Erasers?! I paid $2 for a 2 pack at Wally World tonight.

Kevin T

putz · « **Reply #9 on:** 30 Jan 2012, 02:06 am »

Quote from: kgturner on 30 Jan 2012, 01:45 am

Where are you people buying your Magic Erasers?! I paid $2 for a 2 pack at Wally World tonight.

Kevin T

I bought the 4 pack. I clean my cart a lot.

Plus I don't shop at Walmart.

orthobiz · « **Reply #10 on:** 30 Jan 2012, 11:50 am »

Off topic for just a sec, but isn't the magic eraser one of these white kitchen sponges? How exactly do you clean a needle with it?

Paul

TomS · « **Reply #11 on:** 30 Jan 2012, 01:13 pm »

Quote from: orthobiz on 30 Jan 2012, 11:50 am

Off topic for just a sec, but isn't the magic eraser one of these white kitchen sponges? How exactly do you clean a needle with it?

Paul

Just cut a small square and gently drop the stylus onto it vertically. Don't rub or wipe it!

Indiansprings · « **Reply #12 on:** 30 Jan 2012, 02:14 pm »

Trust me when I say this... I am nowhere close to an audiophile expert. That being out of the way.
Maybe you are looking in the wrong direction. If you feel something is missing, or your system isn't sounding as well as it should. You might play with speaker placement, move some things in the room, soften reflection points etc. You have very nice speakers, but maybe a different speaker is what your looking for.
Or maybe your like me, just like to keep throwing money into it, hoping for that elusive sonic perfection.
You have a very nice front end. Maybe look down stream.

Delacroix · « **Reply #13 on:** 30 Jan 2012, 03:21 pm »

If investing $2k in your rig, I'd look seriously at a new cartridge. If you like what you get, you can keep it for the long haul even as you upgrade other parts of your rig. I think your table can support a wide range of high quality cartridges. I upgraded my cartridge (from Benz Wood to Clearaudio Concerto) AFTER upgrading my phono stage and I don't think I fully appreciated the benefit of the new phono stage until I had that new cartridge installed and loaded. So many choices at that price, especially if you go lightly used (yeah, I know...the used cartridge market can be minefield) but you'll get a change for sure (hopefully for the better!).

Other issue, which others rightly note, is support. I put a Gingko under my table a couple of years back and have never taken it out since. Prior to that, table sat on a 3in maple butcher block which I liked but the Gingko on top of that was another step up. I really liked what it did for my VPI Aries when I owned one and you could probably get a Gingko plus a great used cartridge upgrade for a combined $2k total if you search.

beaglebump · « **Reply #14 on:** 30 Jan 2012, 03:54 pm »

etcarroll: I have Mullard CV4004's in all spots in the EAR. It was a significant improvement in presentation definition from the stock tubes. Also changed out the stock pc for a Ridge Street Alethia, which helped a bit more.

On the off-topic of Magic Erasers, there's a detailed forum topic on the 'gon:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1290986217&openflup&1&4#1

I've used this idea for a few yrs. and it really does the trick - highly recommended.
Buy a 4 -pack from your local grocery, and you're set for life.

beaglebump · « **Reply #15 on:** 30 Jan 2012, 04:16 pm »

You all have been most helpful - thank you. I'm partic. intrigued with the platform issue, Ginko, et al. Sure I've been aware and read much about this, but never really put much stock in it. I've some rubber pucks underneath the SM cones, and seems to be fine. But then again, w/o having tried a platform, I suppose I wouldn't be able to appreciate its benefits?! Will look into this.

It certainly is easy enough in this obsessive hobby to want to throw coin at it, assuming this is the means to sonic nirvana, w/o selling off the house. As a professional musician/professor, I suppose its just difficult to listen w/o being critical of anything that doesn't accurately represent the live performance. The recent acquisition of the Daedalus Athenas are a result of this pursuit, and they deliver in spades! The digital front end through these is absolutely incredible! The analog is...ok, but know there's the potential for incredible. Just want to know the most logical point of affect to begin. I'll certainly look into the more affordable adjustments, e.g. platform, feet, maybe audition an SDS, as they hold they're value pretty well on the pre-owned market.

vortrex · « **Reply #16 on:** 30 Jan 2012, 06:11 pm »

I don't have the SDS for my VPI Classic yet, maybe never will. if you read the user reviews many people hear very little to no difference at all. even VPI says they recommend the periphery ring as a better upgrade than the SDS. that's really put me off from trying one. at $800 to $1200, even if you did hear an improvement, I think it might be one of those things that is lost after one day of listening. if you really want some big improvements I would look into your phono stage. the 834P is decent, but it's kind of flubby, dark, and gets confused during complicated tracks, in my opinion. the good thing for you is they carry a pretty hefty price tag used so you could upgrade to something much better at $0 cost.

beaglebump · « **Reply #17 on:** 30 Jan 2012, 06:30 pm »

Vortex: Hmmm, I've received sim. advice from other VPI owners. Guess it depends on reliable house current. For me, I feel ours is spot-on (+ my Running Springs conditioner). Any thoughts on a phono stage? Thought about adding the EAR MC4 head unit. As you mention, however, for the $ I would prefer not adding something else in the chain, but hearing via a better phono pre. Aesthetix comments make me nervous w/ noise issues. Einstein, maybe. Another on this topic recommended K&K... Living in a remote area, unfortunately I do not have easy access to brick & mortar resources for audition, so it's a lot of research and leap of faith!

Sonny · « **Reply #18 on:** 30 Jan 2012, 06:41 pm »

I assume you are using the JMW9 tonearm? I'd go with a 10.5i...I did and it's much better!

Sonny · « **Reply #19 on:** 30 Jan 2012, 06:42 pm »

Quote from: beaglebump on 30 Jan 2012, 06:30 pm

Vortex: Hmmm, I've received sim. advice from other VPI owners. Guess it depends on reliable house current. For me, I feel ours is spot-on (+ my Running Springs conditioner). Any thoughts on a phono stage? Thought about adding the EAR MC4 head unit. As you mention, however, for the $ I would prefer not adding something else in the chain, but hearing via a better phono pre. Aesthetix comments make me nervous w/ noise issues. Einstein, maybe. Another on this topic recommended K&K... Living in a remote area, unfortunately I do not have easy access to brick & mortar resources for audition, so it's a lot of research and leap of faith!

why don't you describe what you think you are missing in terms of sound characteristics?