[doug s.]

jlm, i would suggest taking aj's suggestion - monitors on subs that can serve as stands.  get it set up right, and the cats shouldn't bother it.  the speakers and subs he suggests look good.  or, buy aj's soundfields, and set them on the subs, and get a small amp for the tweets.

or, simply go passive - a used pair of thiel 3.5's are -2db at 20hz; their more refined replacements, the 3.6's, are -3db at 27hz.  (and the 3.6's are a slightly easier load on amps, not having an active eq.)  the 3.5's tho relatively scarce these days, are <$1k; the 3.6's are <$2k...  both are still first rate speakers, imo - imaging & soundstaging champs, and the 3.6's are extremely rewealing w/o any harshness.  i always thought the 3.5's were rewealing, and they are - but the 3.6's (and other speakers) are better...  and, for ht use, i would also recommend the 3.6's, as they will ultimately go louder, and as i said before, they are more amp friendly.  you will want beefy power for either...

3.6's; asking $1200 (from a dealer):
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/thiel-cs3-6-morano-70-off-free-layaway-trades-ok-l

(personally, i would jump on these)

another pair of 3.6's, asking $1700:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/beautiful-audiophile-thiel-cs-3-6-s-in-rare-cherry-wood

3.5's asking $475:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/thiel-cs3-5-speakers-with-equalizer-pick-up-only

doug s.

[JLM]

tvyankee,   yes they're offering the Equator Q8 pair, with room DSP software, mail order for $1,000, but unfortunately aren't offering such discounts on the Q10/12/15.  From Russell's links, I'd summerize by calling the sound "unsophisicated" (electronic self noise, horn up top, industrial look).

Doug, yes, the monitor/sub solution is the way the wind is blowing.  Sorry I've never been a fan of the Thiel house sound, but I'd take a few of those palm trees here in Michigan (what am I complaining about?, this is one of the warmest winters on record).  Besides this thread is about active speakers.

[doug s.]

Doug, yes, the monitor/sub solution is the way the wind is blowing.  Sorry I've never been a fan of the Thiel house sound, but I'd take a few of those palm trees here in Michigan (what am I complaining about?, this is one of the warmest winters on record).  Besides this thread is about active speakers.

hey jlm, s'ok - i happen to think the thiel's sound fabulous, otherwise i wouldn't have recommended them.  i know not everyone likes them.

and, i know the thread is about active speakers, which is why i recommended what aj was talking about.  however, i know the thread is also about coming up w/a workable solution for you for your listening space - having a true full-range floorstander, not taking up a lot of room, and <$2k - which is why i suggested an alternative to active...   

one more option:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/m-audio-studiophile-cx5-studio-monitor
cheaper if you buy it w/mics, etc:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/search/search.jsp?sB=r&question=cx5#fT=&gP=1&pS=20&v=g&sB=r&lP=s&question=cx5

best,

doug s.

[Russell Dawkins]

JLM,
Some of those speaker suggestions look pretty good man, but I think that you will grow tired of listening to pro monitors when you just want to be entertained by your system. Your stereo should have a personality that suits you. Pro monitors don't really have a personality. They are great tools, but not very good toys.

Toys are more fun!   

I sense the presence of a common misconception here.

With due respect, QE, I think you have this point precisely backwards; up-side down.

The speaker with the "personality" will bore you.

Why? Because everything played through it will sound somewhat similar because you are listening to the program content with the speakers' personality overlaid upon everything. The stronger the personality the more this is the case and, you will eventually not play your system so often or for so long, without knowing why. This actually happened to me years ago without my understanding. Now I know.

The speaker with the least personality - with the flattest frequency response and the lowest distortion - will disappear better and reveal the personality in the recording. This is entertaining and will keep you listening!

Most pro monitors are no more accurate than home speakers, they just play louder, usually, but most mid-level pro buyers are no better informed nor more discerning than typical home stereo buyers and can't afford to be, with all the other expenses of building a home studio. The Neumann KH120s I referred to earlier (as well as the 0300s I have) are very accurate and a lot of fun to listen to, for all the reasons I listed.

I've thought this through - I have to listen for hours a day as my job, and I want it to be as fun as possible.

P.S. M Audio would not provide much satisfaction. At that price point I would be looking at Yamaha; they are much more respected and there is a solid reason why their little NS10M became the studio standard for so many years as a small speaker reference, and still can be seen everywhere in studios (their white cones became iconic). I can't explain the legs in the first image...








Here's a modern take on this:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/yamaha-hs80m-8-powered-studio-monitor--each
and for a little more, these are also highly respected and come with their own measurement mic for tuning them to your space (JBL has gained a new respectability over the last 10 years).
These would rock your sox: http://www.zzounds.com/item--JBLLSR4328P

[charmerci]

I can't explain the legs in the first image...

She must be working on the electronics on the board! 

[Quiet Earth]

Thank you for proving my point Russell :

I have to listen for hours a day as my job,

... and the rest of us do not.


I think the common misconception here is that we should emulate what the mastering guys use, because after all, they are producing the music that we are listening to. This is a recipe for long term disappointment in my opinion. Let's just say that we agree to disagree. Respectfully, of course. 

My recommendation for buying pro monitors is to buy them used, because the odds are high that you will resell them anyway. YMMV, IMO, etc., etc. 

[doug s.]

Thank you for proving my point Russell :... and the rest of us do not.


I think the common misconception here is that we should emulate what the mastering guys use, because after all, they are producing the music that we are listening to. This is a recipe for long term disappointment in my opinion. Let's just say that we agree to disagree. Respectfully, of course. 

My recommendation for buying pro monitors is to buy them used, because the odds are high that you will resell them anyway. YMMV, IMO, etc., etc. 

qe, i think you completely missed what russel was saying which is this:
"The speaker with the least personality - with the flattest frequency response and the lowest distortion - will disappear better and reveal the personality in the recording. This is entertaining and will keep you listening!"
i am in total agreement - this has been my experience, whether pro-audio active, "audipophile-approved" passive, etc.   accuracy and low distortion are the "personality" that works best, imo.

you may also have missed that russell is not specifically recommending active pro audio speakers; he is simply recommending ones he thinks are good, as the o.p. wants active speakers:
"Most pro monitors are no more accurate than home speakers, they just play louder, usually, but most mid-level pro buyers are no better informed nor more discerning than typical home stereo buyers and can't afford to be, with all the other expenses of building a home studio."

ymmv,

doug s.

ps - i recommend buying any gear used, because, regardless of what it is, the odds are high that you will re-sell it/them anyway... 

[Quiet Earth]

  Maybe...... I also think that we are probably just splitting hairs. 

One thing we can probably all agree on is that JLM ain't gonna find what he's looking for for 2 Gs.  Seems like a tall order to me. Good luck JLM !

[Russell Dawkins]

Maybe...... I also think that we are probably just splitting hairs. 

One thing we can probably all agree on is that JLM ain't gonna find what he's looking for for 2 Gs.  Seems like a tall order to me. Good luck JLM !

We are not splitting hairs, but dealing with fundamental large scale misconceptions that really have an important bearing on decisions made with our pockeetbooks! Live and learn, they say.

You apparently completely get it, Doug!

My intent is to inform and be constructive, so others may not waste as much time and money finding nirvana as I did. I try not to waste my time splitting hairs.

[doug s.]

Maybe...... I also think that we are probably just splitting hairs. 

well, if you think splitting hairs is like distinguishing black from white, then i'm all in!   

doug s.

[Quiet Earth]

My intent is to inform and be constructive, so others may not waste as much time and money finding nirvana as I did.

Me too, and that's why I posted. I hope you believe that. Sometimes I am wrong and I learn from you guys. Thank you when that happens! Other times I am just the minority and that's fine too. Either way I'm here with you and together we make up the bell curve.

Let me try again if it's not too late. What I meant about "splitting hairs" was that we are trying to achieve the same goal of getting good sound but we are going about it in different ways. I wasn't trying to invalidate anyone else's taste or experience. I know that there is more than one way to skin a cat.


FWIW, I still believe in the personality thing that I mentioned earlier even though it was probably a bad analogy. If I may elaborate without digging myself any deeper (uh-oh).......   I think that all systems, components, speakers or what have you will have a certain personality to them. They will have a clearly defined voice from which they speak. This is totally unavoidable in my opinion, no matter what you buy or how much money you spend. Even if your goal is ultimate transparency you will still end up with a voice. So, it is up to you, the end user, to identify what kind of sound you like and then go with it. This doesn't mean that you have to give up contrast or the ability to discriminate between different recorded events. It just means that you recognize that no matter what you get, the gear will sound a certain way.

If I'm wrong about that, then I'm wrong about that. No biggie. 



Ok, back to active speakers. I have obviously not heard them all, nor do I work in the pro audio field so my comments were very general. One thing about powered studio speakers that I don't care for is a voice that speaks more like a job than a vacation. I personally don't want to feel compelled to analyze sound when I listen, I want to be seduced by music. Nor do I want to imagine how a mix will translate on another hi-fi when I listen, I already own a good hi-fi.  I could stare at those legs all day long because that is an emotional trigger, but I would probably loose interest in listening to music with that gear after just a few songs.


Then back to the budget at hand. I think we are over-analyzing in general when there is really only so much you can do with two grand. I would keep saving.

[JLM]

Yes, studio monitors can be "overly analytical".  I've heard such and with them I'm unable to switch out of "detail mode" where I'm picking apart all the bits.  That's fun, but fatiguing and can easily lead to making much of my favorite music unlistenable due to those speakers revealing such music as being poor recordings.  I don't listen for a living, but work as a licensed engineer (lots of analytical tasks) so I want to relax with my music and let the emotive side of me bask in it.

Over the years I've found that what I seek is "resolution" which I define as detail that comes from good imaging (the sound seems to be more focused).  That's why my main rig has $1500 invested in single wide range drivers.  But I also want dynamics, flat frequency response (I'm using EQ now), and deep/full bass (my drivers in the raw are rated down to 30 Hz).

[JLM]

I agree with Russell, the ideal speakers don't have a sound of their own.  With speakers especially I know there is no perfect speaker and that they all impart some sort of self-sound.  I listen to a variety of music and don't want it all smothered in warmth or whatever, so I'd like to minimize it.  For the same reason I gave up on tubes, knowing that rolling (or just letting them age) does exactly that.

Russell, from the tidbits I've picked up over the years most high-end studio guys are more than glad to move away from the ubiquitous Yamaha NS-10M.

I'm not really after hearing exactly what the studio heard and that's not realistic anyway because they all use different monitors.  Some of reviews I've found reference active monitors used at home or that they are "enjoyable" for home use.  The JBL LSM2325/2328 are reportedly such beasts.

Like I said before, if finding what I'm looking for was easy, I wouldn't be coming here for advice.  Thanks so much guys.   

[totoro]

Now that we're so far from the original thread: has anyone here ever tried the jbl 6332? How would it compare to the k+h o300? Also, does the o300 have some kind of mounting points or other way of attaching it to a soffit or stand, or does it just sit on a stand?

[srb]

Also, does the o300 have some kind of mounting points or other way of attaching it to a soffit or stand, or does it just sit on a stand?

There are installed rear panel brackets for wall mounting (adequate clearance for AC, signal input and heatsink required).  For Stand or Ceiling/Soffit mounting, an optional U-bracket (LH 25) is available that attaches to threaded inserts on the monitor sides.  The 0300 is designed for horizontal placement due to its 90°H x 60°V waveguide.
 
Steve

[Russell Dawkins]

totoro,
for mounting the 0300 and KH120, go to the main Neumann page: http://www.neumann-kh-line.com/neumann-kh/home_en.nsf and click once on "mounting hardware matrix" (top right). I say once because the site is slow and downloads take around 30 seconds. If you click on the image of the 0300 or the 120 (and wait) there is a choice "further images" to the right. Click on that, then on the rear view of the 0300 (and wait).
You can click on the image for further magnification, but can see the mounting provisions on the rear. On the oblique view you can just make out the side threaded holes for the u-bracket bolts.
The KH120 "further images" shows a wide variety on mounting options.

I would say the K+H would be distinctly more accurate and capable of thrilling you in a more subtle way (like on some voices) but the JBL alternative could be more fun, especially the 8" woofer variant (the aforementioned LSR 4328 - blemished, here for $1200; http://www.zzounds.com/item--JBLLSR4328P) which you could crank up higher, I would think, and just rock out.

With the 0300s though I have discovered, for example, just how good a singer Elvis was and how great some of those recordings were that were made by the pros of the early 50s big band recordings behind Frank Sinatra, the Mills Brothers and the like. I have also heard for the first time the nervousness of some brass and woodwind players, betrayed by the very slight tremolo caused by the breath fluctuations from subtle shaking, and revealed by the superb dynamic tracking of the speakers allowed by the generous internal amplification and conservative demands on the drivers. The 3" mid dome, for example, is powered by 65 wrms and covers only 2.3 octaves from 650Hz to 3.3kHz. This allows for generous headroom exactly where most 2-way speakers are struggling - at the top of the bass driver's passband and the bottom of the tweeter's passband which, in turn, translates to less strain in the vocal range which actually makes the speaker easier to listen to at the same time as being revealing.

That the KH120 comes as close as it does to the 0300 (very, very close) for less than half the price and around half the size makes it a serious bargain, plus it is more living room-friendly because of the bass driver screen.

As I say, if I were buying today, I'd probably buy the 120s and use the surplus cash to play with subs - K+H 810s or multiple cheap subs, in the style of Geddes and LeJeune, or a couple of Goldwood 18s in H baffles, or...

[totoro]

Thanks, Steve and Russell.

The JBL 6332 is actually a passive 3-way with a 12" woofer, so it's definitely bigger than the o300. I live in a condo with active pets, which is why I was asking the mounting question (it would really suck to spend ~4k on a pair of monitors and have them sent flying off the stands.

I am guessing from your replies that there are standard pro audio monitor stands that work with the u-shaped brackets. Is this correct?

Russell, I've been ogling a pair of refurbished o410s on ebay: have you heard these before? Also, do the smaller Neumann monitors have provisions for mounting hardware?

[Russell Dawkins]

totoro
follow the links on my previous post to see mounting hardware for the 120.
The 0410 is a fantastic speaker. I recommended them to a good friend who has a very successful local studio and he loves them. They are capable of reproducing a large force, like a big band, orchestra or most rock concerts at live levels with no stress. hey retail for around $9k a pair, street price. The midrange is even better than the 0300 - it  has a real waveguide and a ton of power (160wrms) driving it.

I don't know what the asking is for the 0410, but chances are you could never make the 6332 as good as the 0410, no matter what amps you chose, and you'd pay more in the process.

(edited to clarify the last sentence)

[totoro]

For as long as I've been ogling them, there seem to have been a pair or two of o410s in the 6.5k range. It is really tempting, although a bit extravagant for my means.

Since the speakers I've been looking at are 4.5 k or so, it seems like it might be better to just save my pennies longer and get a pair of the 410s.

But then again, a pair of pi loudspeakers pi 4s or a pair of gedlee abbeys could be pretty nice (or the new Seaton sound kit with a b&c de250 and 15" audio elegance woofer). Oh the choices .

[Russell Dawkins]

For as long as I've been ogling them, there seem to have been a pair or two of o410s in the 6.5k range. It is really tempting, although a bit extravagant for my means.

Since the speakers I've been looking at are 4.5 k or so, it seems like it might be better to just save my pennies longer and get a pair of the 410s.

But then again, a pair of pi loudspeakers pi 4s or a pair of gedlee abbeys could be pretty nice (or the new Seaton sound kit with a b&c de250 and 15" audio elegance woofer). Oh the choices .

If only you had the opportunity to A/B the Abbeys against the 0410, but that ain't gonna happen! I would imagine that they're different enough that you wouldn't need them side by side, though. I've never had the opportunity to hear any of Geddes' speakers, but I would jump at the chance. I am curious.