[Bigfishhk]

As a subwoofer novice, I hope some fellow Salk owners can chip in.

 I have songtowers run by an integrated amp- krell kav 400xi. Overall I am pretty happy, though one day would like to make the move to tubes but that,s another story ( I would say the current match is tad clinical but very transparent)

However I listen to alot of bassy music like dub reggae, trip hop, funk. The st's don't quite have the low end oomph for this , at least in my room, so I am considering adding a sub. I don,t use the speakers for HT. Currently the st's are 7" from back wall, no sign of muddiness. Still want more bass extension that I am getting.

I gather that I can connect an active subwoofer to the preamp outs on my integrated amp.

QUESTION. However I cannot understand how adjusting the crossover point to say 80hz on the subwoofer will take effect. How do the main speakers accept/read this setting, as it were? I would have thought they would continue to run full range unless the crossover setting is made in the amplifier or processor? With my amp I cannot make any crossover settings.

I hope I am making sense. The more i read about subs, the more confusing it gets to this technically challenged music lover!

I would greatly appreciate any further feedback and recommendations in general re using sub with St's. My previous short experience with subs was not good, but it was a mediocre sub in another set up.

If I did get a sub it would be a good one such as Rythmik or Songsub.

Have St owners who,ve added sub been happy with the choice and is it difficult to integrate well?

Thank you
Tom

[srb]

QUESTION. However I cannot understand how adjusting the crossover point to say 80hz on the subwoofer will take effect. How do the main speakers accept/read this setting, as it were? I would have thought they would continue to run full range unless the crossover setting is made in the amplifier or processor? With my amp I cannot make any crossover settings.

You are correct, your speakers will run full-range.  The only ways to high-pass filter would be either with an outboard speaker level filter or using the high-pass filter section of subwoofer speaker inputs. 

It would be easier if you had a separate preamp and amp, where you could put inline high-pass filters on the main pre outs to the amplifier.  Running the main speakers with a high pass filter can often give improved midrange if the drivers are not asked to reproduce low bass, as well as reduced power requirements.

But I would probably personally just go with the simplicity of adding bass to your full range speakers.  Often partially or completely plugging the main speaker ports can help in the transition to the subwoofer.  I have successfully added a subwoofer to full-range mains and was happy with the extra low end that was added.  If you have flexibility in placement of the subwoofer, that will go a long way to find a position where either bass nulls or peaks are at their possible minimum.

Of course, those who implement a swarm of multiple subwoofers will recommend that, as multiple subs can even out room bass response, but not everyone has the room placement options for that or the propensity to get over-complicated.

I'm sure several Salk owners can relate successfull implementations of a single subwoofer added to full-range main speakers.

Steve

[Bigfishhk]

"You are correct, your speakers will run full-range.  The only ways to high-pass filter would be either with an outboard speaker level filter or using the high-pass filter section of subwoofer speaker inputs"

Are you saying that I can get a subwoofer which can do the above and it would work with my integrated amp set up, or I have to switch to separates to do it?

Many tx
Tom

[srb]

There are subwoofers that have speaker level inputs that get connected to your amplifier speaker outputs, and provide high-passed speaker output connections that go to your main speakers, but it is more often a feature of mass-market consumer subwoofers.

The extra cabling from your amplifier to the subwoofer and then to the main speakers is generally not a good thing, and the quality of the filters (as well as the quality of the subwoofers themselves) is suspect.

I'm sure there are a few Salk owners running their main speakers full-range with a preamp output to a Rythmik or SongSub subwoofer who are pleased with the results, although they all probably went through a bit of trial and error experimentation with placement, crossover frequency and phase adjustment.

Steve

[Bigfishhk]

Steve
Thank you for that added info. Re your own set up-
"But I would probably personally just go with the simplicity of adding bass to your full range speakers...  I have successfully added a subwoofer to full-range mains and was happy with the extra low end that was added"

Do you still run a pair of ST,s plus a sub now as you describe? If so, any recommendation for sub? If Rhythmik, which one? I would only get one.
Tom

[srb]

I do not have Salk SongTowers.  My main speakers are Opera Callas Diva floorstanders, rear ported, and as far as cabinet size and driver size, about halfway between SongTowers and HT2-TL, located 16" from the wall.  The subwoofer is an older Celestion, and only has an 8" driver.  I have a piece of rolled-up 1/2" thick foam in the speaker rear ports, which I felt helped to blend the speakers and subwoofer.   

I have thought about a subwoofer upgrade, and the subwoofers I have considered (in ascending price)

Rythmik F12 ($800)
or
Rythmik F12 in Salk Sound cabinet ($?)

Selah Audio with TC Sounds 12" LMS driver ($1050 shipped*)
*as of 8/23/2010; not listed on website and price may have increased

J.L Audio F110 (~ $1400 USED) 

I guess many people are out on this Saturday, but eventually some Salk SongTower owners will post with their sub choice, implementation and comments.

Steve

[Art_Chicago]

Does your integrated have a second RCA line out?
I have ST and Rythmic FV 12 ported and really like it. On the sub You can adjust the volume, the frequency and the phase ( delay). For music I run at medium volume, and 50 Hz. The delay is at 110 degrees. It is very Easy to setup by ear.  So no problem running ST full range as long as the sub has enough controls as rythmik does.

[Bigfishhk]

'Does your integrated have a second RCA line out?'

IT HAS 1 PAIR SINGLE ENDED PRE AMP / RCA connectors. Will that work with set up you propose?

' I have ST and Rythmic FV 12 ported and really like it. On the sub You can adjust the volume, the frequency and the phase ( delay). For music I run at medium volume, and 50 Hz. The delay is at 110 degrees. It is very Easy to setup by ear.  So no problem running ST full range as long as the sub has enough controls as rythmik does.'

 sounds like running ST's full range is doing nicely for you. how would you say the 2.1 set up sounds comparing to no subwoofer.?

thank you
 

[neekomax]

However I listen to alot of bassy music like dub reggae, trip hop, funk.

Dude, you need a sub. Get two of these! Dual 12"s, badass!

http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/legend.html

[Bigfishhk]

Dude, you need a sub. Get two of these! Dual 12"s, badass!

http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/legend.html

[/color]

thanks for suggestion. how do Epik rate vs Rythmik?

Also do I need 2 really? Not looking for club volume levels!!

best

TOm

[Art_Chicago]

'Does your integrated have a second RCA line out?'

IT HAS 1 PAIR SINGLE ENDED PRE AMP / RCA connectors. Will that work with set up you propose?

' I have ST and Rythmic FV 12 ported and really like it. On the sub You can adjust the volume, the frequency and the phase ( delay). For music I run at medium volume, and 50 Hz. The delay is at 110 degrees. It is very Easy to setup by ear.  So no problem running ST full range as long as the sub has enough controls as rythmik does.'

 sounds like running ST's full range is doing nicely for you. how would you say the 2.1 set up sounds comparing to no subwoofer.?

thank you

I guess you can use interconnects to hook up the sub, the manual of the amp should state it. My AVA preamp has 2 outs - one for the amp, one for the sub.

As for 2.1 vs 2-ch -- really depends on the music. For an electric bass guitar a sub will be a VERY nice addition, you won't regret the spending.  Double bass is fine on ST's without a sub.
I like my Rythmik as it is great for music and does movies all right. SVS, Epic are designed for HT, as  far as I know. Of course, SongSub will work great and it is gonna look stunning!
Let us know if you get a sub.

[Kinger]

Another Rythmik F12 user here with Songtower ST/RT's.  Not running my ST's full range though as I have a separate pre from my amp.  Also using my sub with a Velodyne SMS-1 to EQ the sub to the room and better blend it with the ST's.

[Bigfishhk]

Another Rythmik F12 user here with Songtower ST/RT's.  Not running my ST's full range though as I have a separate pre from my amp.  Also using my sub with a Velodyne SMS-1 to EQ the sub to the room and better blend it with the ST's.

[/color]

Interesting that you have a separate component to eq the sub as I thought the Rhythmik had good eq capacities?
Also is the placment of sub very fussy? I only have one spot it can go which is next to one of the speakers in front of a wall.
Tx
Tom

[jsalk]

I agree with comments above that suggest running your speakers full range and bringing the sub in under them to augment the bottom end.  Properly integrating a sub with the mains requires a little work to get the cross right.  The phase and gain have to be spot on and the position of the sub in the room can impact bass levels at the listening position.

As low as the speakers play, their phase and gain will be accurate.  So unless you are trying to relieve the mains of bass duty for some reason, you may as well take advantage of the speaker's built-in crossover and bring the sub up under the natural roll off of the speakers.

As for your choice of subs, we have built many subs over the years and have heard many more.  In general, most subwoofer drivers are not all that accurate.  They do play deep bass, but their FR plots leave a lot to be desired. All subs being sold today produce deep bass, but most are not all that musical.  They are OK for producing earthquakes or bomb blasts, but their inaccuracy makes it difficult for them to faithfully reproduce music.  If they are not up to the task, they can actually diminish quality when used for music and you just end up with a muddy bottom end.  We have had many, many customers sell their subs because they enjoyed their speakers more without the added muddiness.  This is not a problem with the concept of a subwoofer itself, but rather the implementation of a given subwoofer design. 

We have used quite a few subwoofer drivers over the years and there are are only a small handful of drivers I would choose for my own personal use.  We have built some great subs with TC Sounds drivers and AE builds some very nice drivers for us as well (very similar to TC drivers).  But with servo circuitry in the mix, the Rythmik takes this style of driver to another level.  In their price range, there is nothing I am aware of that can come close to their performance for both home theater and high quality music.  It is very difficult to recommend anything else.

- Jim

[Bigfishhk]

Jim
Thank you for the recommendation and insights. I think a Rythmik might add alot to my enjoyment of reggae,  electronic music etc but that is 25% of what I listen to. I suspect I would NOT use sub across the board since the ST,s handle most everything else so elegantly and with such nice balance.

Tom

[JLM]

Tom,

With floorstanders that reach 42 Hz, it will be important to look for a sub that can crossover that low (many follow the THX standard of 80 Hz for small standmounts).

I know Ascend Acoustics (a well regarded builder of standmounts) also recommend Rythmik.

[Gzerro]

Interesting that you have a separate component to eq the sub as I thought the Rhythmik had good eq capacities?

The Rhythmik sub has a single band parametric EQ (PEQ) that can be set manually. This is quite useful to even out the single worst peak/resonance in your room. With careful placement and some luck it may be all that is needed, but it is not as powerful as some of the other automated tools available such as the SMS-1.

Also, you will need the capability to measure your in-room frequency response with a tool such as REW or Omnimic in order to optimize the PEQ setting, which is more trouble than many people want to deal with.

[K Shep]

Interesting that you have a separate component to eq the sub as I thought the Rhythmik had good eq capacities?

I too utilize an SMS, every thing from 80 Hz and below is sent to my sub, JL Audio.  The SMS allows the user to plug a monitor into the unit that shows real-time smoothed graph of the room’s low frequency response from 15Hz to 200Hz.  You are able to manipulate the EQ using a remote and make adjustments while listening to a test tone of your rooms response.  I've attached a photo of my old tube TV I used as a monitor to tweek my system.  I adjusted the settings on my sub, then adjusted the SMS, back to the sub then finally the SMS.  The result is what you see in the photo.

[Nuance]

  In their price range, there is nothing I am aware of that can come close to their performance for both home theater and high quality music.  It is very difficult to recommend anything else.

- Jim

Other than DIY, which allows you to choose the finest drivers on the market (such as the TC or AE ones Jim mentioned), I completely agree with this.  Rythmik offers a ton of bang for buck, as does Salk and their custom subs.  Actually, Salk can custom build any kind of cabinet and use your veneer of choice, which is awesome IMO, so it's like going the DIY route without actually having to do any work (other than choosing the driver and amplifer and what not). Win win if you can afford it!

Tom,

How big is your room?  The room will literally destroy a subwoofer's in-room response (output) if it isn't placed properly or if the subwoofer is too small for the cu. ft. of said room.  Can you provide your room dimensions (L x W x H)?  Before pulling the trigger you (we) need to make sure you're purchasing enough subwoofer for your room.

[Bigfishhk]

How big is your room?  The room will literally destroy a subwoofer's in-room response (output) if it isn't placed properly or if the subwoofer is too small for the cu. ft. of said room.  Can you provide your room dimensions (L x W x H)?  Before pulling the trigger you (we) need to make sure you're purchasing enough subwoofer for your room.
Nuance, the room is divided by small partition.  The listening area part is 10ft wide by 20ft deep x 10ft high.  The total room size including the room on the other side of partition is more like 25ft wide  x 20f deep x 10-14 ft high ( the ceiling height in the other side  of listening area is 14ft).
 So it,s hard to say whether to measure the listening area only or the total space, esp since the partition is partial. Does this make sense? It,s an odd space.

Thanks
Tom